<p>There are plenty of threads with a whole battery of pros and cons. Read through them and you may pick up arguments on the other side that might add texture to your current understanding of the complex issue. Also, AA was to make up for historical inequities in opportunity, not to calibrate worker or student bodies with the US census.</p>
<p>You need to look at the percentages of college applicants, not the population at large.</p>
<p>That is interesting. According to the Columbia website, 51% of the university (not just Columbia College) is identified as white, but that is still 19% below the national percentage. However, I would venture to guess that Columbia University is particularly dedicated to bringing in diversity to their campus (after all, it is in New York City). At the average university though, non whites and non asians are still overrepresented in comparison to blacks and hispanics.</p>
<p>Why do I need to look at percentage of college applicants? My understanding is that, that statistic is meaningless for affirmative action...or is it.</p>
<p>Percentage of college applicants is a better statistic to go off of because AA assumes the colleges are purposely recruiting minorities over whites. If, however, the college offers admission to 70% whites, 30% minorities then there is no disparity and we can conclude that AA is not a significant factor in the admissions process. For all we know, there might be some lurking variable in the background that makes whites less likely to actually go to Columbia than minorities or something.</p>
<p>Also, 11% of the admitted student population is unknown. We can safely assume most of those are regular white people who think being identified as such will hurt them, so that's another wrench in your statistical analysis.</p>
<p>I would disagree that most of that 11% is white, a good percentage or even most would most likely be asian. Or even uninformed minorities who believe their race would hurt their changes (you never know). And it's not just Columbia, it most top colleges. I think Dartmouth is the closest though with 60% white population and 5% unknown.</p>
<p>Are there any statistics out about % applicants to college as a whole?</p>
<p>Edit: Predicting a response, most people don't go on college confidential to learn that being a URM is a boost. Many people on here still ask about it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So...what am I missing?
[/quote]
You're missing the other 19%. According to the collegeboard, Columbia College is:
1% American Indian/Alaskan Native
14% Asian/Pacific Islander
11% Black/Non-Hispanic
13% Hispanic
42% White/Non-Hispanic
8% non-residency alien
11% unreported</p>
<p>Out of that, 81% are identified and domestic students... and 52% of them are white. Given that 11% did not report their ethnicities, Columbia's white population at could be as high as 65% of domestic students if everyone who didn't report their ethnicities was white. I would think that URMs would obviously report their ethnicities and Asians would as well given that it's usually not too hard to derive an Asian by the applicant's names or the parents' names. Plus, white students from Europe, Australia, Canada, or other countries surely make up a sizable portion of the international pool. This is just pure speculation, but I can say pretty confidently that Columbia is much more than 42% white.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Edit: Predicting a response, most people don't go on college confidential to learn that being a URM is a boost. Many people on here still ask about it.
[/quote]
Are you saying that many URMs don't know that they're getting preferential treatment? I would imagine that anyone who is Columbia material had to have a shred of knowledge on this hot-button issue.... it's been in the news for decades.</p>
<p>I don't think you saw my post above, as for reporting ethincity...but anyway.</p>
<p>Even so...if you Assume that Everyone who did not report is white and exclude internationals... You still only get 58% white, which is 11% below the national percentage!!! That's best case scenario in your view, not 65%...</p>
<p>And regardless of that...you still have asians representing over 3 times their national percentage. I'm gonna go look up the other numbers now...</p>
<p>Edit: African Americans and Hispanics both make up 12.5% of the US, so those stats are right. It's just the White/Asian stats that are wrong.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Even so...if you Assume that Everyone who did not report is white and exclude internationals... You still only get 58% white, which is 11% below the national percentage!!! That's best case scenario in your view, not 65%...
[/quote]
oops. My mistake. I divided 53 by 81 instead of 92. It's too late to do math.</p>
<p>MODERATOR'S NOTE TO "Affirmative Action Question" THREAD: </p>
<p>As usual, this new example of yet another thread about affirmative action will be merged with the FAQ thread about ethnic self-identification in college admission.</p>
<p>See the American Council on Education report </p>
<p>for statistics, based on college reporting to the federal government.</p>
<p>I don't think we see eye to eye on most issues, o well. Anyway, I am not debating affirmative action. I am simply pointing out that while the percentage of African American/Hispanic students at elite institutions corresponds to the national percentage of these minorities; the percentage of White students (even taking "unknown" in consideration) is much lower then their national percentage. And I am wondering, whether this is a violation of affirmative action itself since whites are chronically underrepresendted at these schools.</p>
<p>Edit: Look at page 18 of tokenadult's link...
% of whites in college equals their national percentages
African Americans/Hispanics trails by several percent</p>
<p>Asian Americans consist of 6.4% of college goers, which is both more then their percentage composition of the Nation, but also far less then their representation at elite colleges which is 12%+. (source College</a> Search - SAT Registration - College Admissions - Scholarships)</p>
<p>MODERATOR'S NOTE TO "Affirmative Action for Asian minorities" THREAD: </p>
<p>In the first place, this thread doesn't belong in the SAT and ACT Tests & Test Preparation Forum. I would urge participants on College Confidential forums to use the forum search function (available on the top of every forum page) to look for earlier threads on frequently mentioned subjects like affirmative action. I will move this thread to the FAQ thread on ethnic self-identification by college applicants, which unfortunately will mess up the order of posts and replies a little bit. This is by the request of many users and members of the moderation team who like discussions of affirmative action to be concentrated in one place, the better to keep those discussions well informed and factual.</p>
<p>Gotcha. I posted a thread in the wrong category accidentally.</p>
<p>Are college selection panels allowed to guess someone's race based on the applicant's last name? Is that legal? Of course, they could do it anyway, but is it technically allowed by colleges?</p>
<p>When I apply to colleges, I'm definitely going to say race unknown, since the Asian demographic is so competitive for Ivy admission, (4% national, around 15% in Ivies), but will it matter? Because if they just look at my last name it's a dead giveaway that I'm Indian.</p>
<p>I would have said "Race Unknown", but my last name is so blatantly Anglo-Saxon it wouldn't have made a difference. They would have known anyway.</p>
<p>That should help! Harvard was founded by my ancestors!</p>
<p>If a large number of students are reported by a large number of colleges as "race unknown," my guess is that colleges DON'T guess from a student's family name what the student's ethnicity is. I am aware of how that is done (and indeed one of my friendly social questions on first meeting a new person with an unusual name is asking if my guess of the person's ethnicity is correct), but such a guess would not be reliable in my own children's case, nor would it be reliable in many other cases of "interracial" families nor in some cases of children of adopting parents. My sense of the published evidence is that colleges just plain don't guess about an applicant's ethnicity. They report to the federal government the information that applicants themselves self-report, and otherwise leave the issue alone.</p>
<p>A participant on another thread kindly reminded readers of CC that College Board has now posted most Common Data Set information for the freshman classes enrolled in fall 2007, so it is possible to see percentages of new students at various colleges who are reported as "race unknown." Some colleges have seen the numbers go up, while others have seen them go down, compared to last year. </p>
<p>(21 percent at Cornell) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Cornell University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(20 percent at Amherst College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Amherst College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(18 percent at Princeton) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Princeton University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(18 percent at Reed College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Reed College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(16 percent at Chicago) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - University of Chicago - Chicago - At a Glance </p>
<p>(13 percent at Harvard) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Harvard College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(13 percent at Vanderbilt) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Vanderbilt University - Vandy - At a Glance </p>
<p>(11 percent at Yale) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Yale University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(11 percent at Columbia) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Columbia University: Columbia College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(11 percent at Penn) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - University of Pennsylvania - Penn - At a Glance</p>
<p>Here are figures from various colleges, now that I've found a way to Google them up. (At least one college has new information posted to College Board since I last posted here; maybe a few more colleges will change their most recent reported figures soon.) This list is still not exhaustive, just illustrative. </p>
<p>Here are colleges talked about a lot on CC with fairly high percentages of students reported as "race unknown." </p>
<p>(22 percent at Case Western) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Case Western Reserve University - Case - At a Glance </p>
<p>(21 percent at Cornell) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Cornell University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(21 percent at William and Mary) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - College of William and Mary - CWM - At a Glance </p>
<p>(21 percent at Brandeis) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Brandeis University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(20 percent at Amherst College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Amherst College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(18 percent at Princeton) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Princeton University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(18 percent at Reed College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Reed College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(16 percent at Chicago) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - University of Chicago - Chicago - At a Glance </p>
<p>(15 percent at Penn) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - University of Pennsylvania - Penn - At a Glance </p>
<p>(14 percent at Pomona) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Pomona College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(13 percent at Harvard) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Harvard College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(13 percent at Brown) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Brown University - Brown - At a Glance </p>
<p>(13 percent at Vanderbilt) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Vanderbilt University - Vandy - At a Glance </p>
<p>(12 percent at Carnegie Mellon) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Carnegie Mellon University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(11 percent at Yale) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Yale University - At a Glance </p>
<p>(11 percent at Columbia) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Columbia University: Columbia College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(10 percent at NYU) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - New York University - NYU - At a Glance </p>
<p>(10 percent at Agnes Scott) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Agnes Scott College - ASC - At a Glance </p>
<p>(9 percent at Whitman) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Whitman College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(8 percent at Washington U in St. Louis) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Washington University in St. Louis - Washington U. - At a Glance </p>
<p>(7 percent at Berkeley) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - University of California: Berkeley - Cal - At a Glance </p>
<p>(6 percent at MIT) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Massachusetts Institute of Technology - MIT - At a Glance </p>
<p>(6 percent at Virginia) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - University of Virginia - UVA - At a Glance </p>
<p>And here are some other colleges with high percentages of students reported as "race unknown": </p>
<p>(59 percent at Savannah College of Art and Design) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Savannah College of Art and Design - SCAD - At a Glance </p>
<p>(35 percent at Metropolitan Community College: Penn Valley) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Metropolitan Community College: Penn Valley - At a Glance </p>
<p>(28 percent at Rhode Island School of Design) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Rhode Island School of Design - RISD - At a Glance </p>
<p>(27 percent at Champlain College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Champlain College - CC - At a Glance </p>
<p>(26 percent at George Mason) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - George Mason University - Mason - At a Glance </p>
<p>(24 percent at Lansing Community College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Lansing Community College - LCC - At a Glance </p>
<p>(23 percent at Hartwick College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Hartwick College - The Wick - At a Glance </p>
<p>(21 percent at Lynn University) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Lynn University - LU - At a Glance </p>
<p>(20 percent at SUNY Stony Brook) </p>
<p>(20 percent at New York School of Interior Design) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - New York School of Interior Design - NYSID - At a Glance </p>
<p>(19 percent at Eugene Lang College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Eugene Lang College The New School for Liberal Arts - Lang - At a Glance </p>
<p>(18 percent at SUNY Albany) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - State University of New York at Albany - UAlbany - At a Glance </p>
<p>(18 percent at Fashion Institute of Technology) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Fashion Institute of Technology - FIT - At a Glance </p>
<p>(17 percent at Northeastern) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Northeastern University - NU - At a Glance </p>
<p>(17 percent at Whittier College) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Whittier College - At a Glance </p>
<p>(13 percent at Tuskegee) </p>
<p>College</a> Search - Tuskegee University - TU - At a Glance</p>
<p>Okay, this is ridiculous--the notion that being an asian really does HURT your chances of admissions, especially at the top schools? Yet, the saddest thing is, this is REALITY. This concept, is not only inherently unfair...I find it absolutely...I can't even being to verbalize my frustation.</p>
<p>I'm an American Citizen. My parents immigrated to the United States in their early twenties from South Korea. Therefore, implicitly, I'm a Korean-American. Okay, that's fine.</p>
<p>My parents work all of the time--constantly, around the clock so that my brother and I can succeed in school, and achieve our dreams. But for what--so that I can suffer from discrimination in the admissions process? </p>
<p>Why should my race play a factor in whether I get into a school or not? If I am numerically, and personally qualified to attend school A, why should my application be arbitrarily put aside for a less qualified applicant, simply because of the color of their skin? This is reverse discrimination.</p>
<p>Now, your arguements may be:</p>
<ol>
<li>Your asian, you're probably rich, you've had more opportunities than the kids from other minority backgrounds. </li>
<li>Your an overachiever, you work harder than other kids, you probably do better on the SAT's than kids from other racial backgrounds.</li>
</ol>
<p>Now, here are my rebuttles:
1. Yes I'm asian. Clearly, I'm not rich. In fact, my parents are so poor that I was never able to take SAT private lessons, subject tutors, special coaches for team sports, or anything of the sort. EVERYTHING that i've achieved academically more or less came from MY OWN efforts. MY OWN brains.
2. Okay, so yes, I work harder in school than other kids. Is that SUPPOSED TO BE a problem?</p>
<hr>
<p>Now, the Asian stereotypes (omg, these annoy me).</p>
<ol>
<li>I'm a loner and I have no friends</li>
<li>I play video games 24/7 and I don't play sports. </li>
<li>I study 24/7 and I live in the library.</li>
</ol>
<p>The Facts:
1. I was nominated both Homecoming King, and Mr. THS senior year. Trust me, I have alot of friends. I'm a senior class officer (my senior class has 704 students).
2. I don't play video games, period. Don't have the time for them. And I play all kinds of recreational sports--bball, soccer, football, ice-skating, you name it! The only reason why I couldn't pursue my sport of choice on the varsity level at my school (ice-hockey), is that it costs multiple thousands of dollars per year (to buy ice-time, refferee salaries, etc).
3. I rarely study. I do homework for 2 hours a night, and I study for exams maybe 30 minutes, and thats being overly-generous. Oh, and I'm not in super easy classes either. By the end of my HS Career, I'll have taken 9 AP exams, and 6 IB exams. </p>
<hr>
<p>You know, the saddest thing is, you may say that for the sake of "diversity," schools A, B, and C, should admitt less qualified candidates simply because they are underepresented minorities. ***? My parents make less than 30,000 a year. I DONT live in a mansion. I've worked to attain my dreams, not my parents. I simply took the God-given opportunities, and took advantage of them. If some URM in NYC, didn't, THEN WHY SHOULD I PAY THE PRICE?</p>
<p>DON"T DIVERSIFY SCHOOLS AT other students' expenses. I'm a human being too, for crying out loud!</p>
<p>BTW, I'm sorry if I sound cocky/conceited, or if it seems like I'm putting down URM's, because I don't mean to do ANY of these things. Some of my BEST friends, are ppl you'd label URM's...but I am extremly frustrated with the current system. WHY IS THE BAR SET higher for asian students? Why?</p>