<p>yeah they don't discriminate against Jews.</p>
<p>"How are you so sure of that? Also, with all the intermarriages how would a school even know if someone was Jewish? Can't go by the last name anymore......"</p>
<p>-They don't need to know if people are Jewish because they treat Jewish applicants the same way as White applicants.</p>
<p>Well, Judaism is a religion not an ethnicity perse. I could convert and be a Jew right now, but my bloodline stays the same. If we consider being a Jew a minority, then anyone can claim they are a Jew. After all, there is no way of checking.</p>
<p><a href="%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059716522-post150.html%5D#150%5B/url%5D">quote</a>The designation "human being" fits all of us.
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<p>You will find many simpatico hueman beings. :)</p>
<p>Because an applicant's classification involves "self-idenfitication", applicants reading this thread can get a jump-start on their critical thinking skills and contribute to the destruction of the "sociopolitical constructs" instead of perpetuating them. (Applicants, please see: the American</a> Anthropological Association Statement on "Race" for a historical backgrounder. Also consider researching the concept of Tribalism.</a>) </p>
<p>Advising a questioning applicant, like [url=<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059713041-post144.html%5DIhearteurope%5B/url">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059713041-post144.html]Ihearteurope[/url</a>], to consider the 'greater truth' has merit: </p>
<p>If everyone simply opted-out of "self-indentification", colleges (and governments: federal/state/local) would be denied/starved of the data that perpetuate the policies that divide us/U.S. As Gandhi noted, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."</p>
<p>MODERATOR'S NOTE TO "Why isnt Jewish considered a help?" thread: </p>
<p>I'll merge this thread with the FAQ thread on ethnic self-identification on college applications. Note carefully the order of questions and replies.</p>
<p>Stitch, do you then mean that although some colleges would like to make their student populations more accurately reflect the racial and/or cultural mix of the general population, they should not try to do so, and students should also not assist them with their efforts? You may be advocating a policy that, at least inadvertently, serves to perpetuate divisions by hindering our mixing.</p>
<p>Is there a basis for the assumption that if colleges simply recruited everywhere, announced their welcome to all people of all backgrounds, and then evaluated applications for admission on the basis of academic and "roommate" qualifications that there wouldn't be opportunity for people of all kinds to mix and meet one another? I ask, because none of my children are enrolled in college yet, but they meet lots of young people whose ancestors came from various parts of the world in our integrated neighborhood.</p>
<p>Well, I've never heard of anybody not being able to go to college as a result of affirmative action. </p>
<p>And if a culturally diverse student body makes for a better student body for just 10 percent of the students there. Or inspires just a few hundred black students to pursue a competitive education, does that make it unjust or wrong???</p>
<p>If the status of a university has virtually no effect on the students future career, but the diversity of each individual class has an effect on 10% of the students in every college, then isn't affirmative action in a sense promoting a greater good?</p>
<p>If 200 students end up at Duke instead of Yale (statistically shown to produce no difference in salary or happiness) so that 200 women, minorities, and international students can help diversify the class (hypothetically benefiting 10% of the student body), isn't this a positive net gain?</p>
<p>Interesting, huh?</p>
<p>(Sorry, i was just reading about moral relativism, absolutism, ect, its good stuff)</p>
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I've never heard of anybody not being able to go to college as a result of affirmative action.
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<p>I take it you mean "not go to any college at all," in which case I'd agree with you, because in the United States anybody can find some college to attend. But there has been litigation by rejected applicants to PARTICULAR colleges (mostly state universities, for constitutional reasons related to the litigation) in which the finding of fact has been that some applicants, some times, have been disadvantaged by ethnic quotas (older cases) or ethnic preference systems (newer cases). A lot of colleges, including most private colleges, have not been subjected to the test of litigation in this matter, and it's unclear what their policies are. </p>
<p>Someone who makes the argument for continued (?) ethnic consciousness in college admission is Roland Fryer, in a paper being prepared for formal publication. </p>
<p>You can't have Affirmative Action to help the URMs without having Anti-Affirmative Action to screw the non-URMS. Support AA if you will, but don't anybody DARE say that it doesn't hurt non-URMS. The reason that it does is simple math:
Ex) A school has 500 freshman slots. Without AA, 30 minorities would be accepted. With AA, 80 minorities would be accepted. What happens to the 50 non-URM students that would have gotten those 50 slots?
A school has 700 freshman slots. Without AA, 80 minorities would be accepted. With AA, 150 minorities would be accepted. What does the college do for those 70 that get left behind?</p>
<p>
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Is there a basis for the assumption that if colleges simply recruited everywhere, announced their welcome to all people of all backgrounds, and then evaluated applications for admission on the basis of academic and "roommate" qualifications that there wouldn't be opportunity for people of all kinds to mix and meet one another?
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Private colleges (where AA is allowed) generally craft their classes with academic qualifications being only one of the factors. Without crafting, European and Asian American women would be over-represented if only due to applications received. It appears (to me, at least) that most private schools want diversity, so they try to achieve it.</p>
<p>And, yes, crafting hurts some groups, but helps the schools (as they see it).</p>
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<a href="#166">url=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059718042-post166.html</a> Stitch, do you then mean that although some colleges would like to make their student populations more accurately reflect the racial and/or cultural mix of the general population, they should not try to do so, and students should also not assist them with their efforts? You may be advocating a policy that, at least inadvertently, serves to perpetuate divisions by hindering our mixing.
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<p>The 'policy' advocates the exact opposite. The 'mixing hinderance' starts well before students attend college. What's being advocated is the following from The</a> Unhyphenated American's Core Principles:</p>
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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."- Mahatma Gandhi: If we ask for 'race' to be removed from our government's interactions with its citizens, we should seek to remove it from our personal lives and the way we individually interact with our fellow Americans. We must 'practice what we preach'. </p>
<p>One of the most personal decisions we make as individuals is selecting a spouse and mate. It would be hypocritical to seek freedom from the misconceptions of 'race' and have it influence the loving union we make with another human. If 'race' really doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist in any context.
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<p>^Agreed. As John Roberts said, “the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”</p>
<p>The 'mixing hinderance' starts well before students attend college.</p>
<p>So should colleges ignore what has happened to students long before they apply? Is mitigation undesirable? Should students who have long been hindered from mixing continue to be excluded and segregated? Some colleges are in a position to help, and choose to do so.</p>
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<a href="#174">url=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059719435-post174.html</a>So should colleges ignore what has happened to students long before they apply? Is mitigation undesirable? Should students who have long been hindered from mixing continue to be excluded and segregated? Some colleges are in a position to help, and choose to do so.
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<p>Colleges can do whatever they want, but students/applicants are the one's that are being asked to "self-identify"...and students/applicants can deny them the data that is used to perpetuate classifications/division.</p>
<p>Students who come from integrated neighborhoods like the one I live in are certainly going to look for colleges at which they can meet a large variety of students from varied backgrounds. (Or at least that is my oldest son's very strong preference.) But I reject the assumption that a college can't end up with a genuinely diverse group of students without an ethnically conscious admission process. If potential is distributed all over the human population, as I believe it is, then colleges that recruit widely and eliminate economic barriers to attendance can expect to have enrolled classes with as much diversity as anyone would desire, even if all the applicants decline to self-identify an ethnic affiliation.</p>
<p>Your theory sounds nice, but doesn't reflect reality. If a race-blind school ended up 60% Asian females and 40% White females, do you really think many students of other races would be interested in spending 4 years there? They just would not apply. Don't forget the "fit" element that everyone dotes on.</p>
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If a race-blind school ended up 60% Asian females and 40% White females, do you really think many students of other races would be interested in spending 4 years there?
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<p>I first rather doubt the premise that any college that is co-ed would end up all female like that, but if it did, why wouldn't lots of people like to apply?</p>
<p>"But I reject the assumption that a college can't end up with a genuinely diverse group of students without an ethnically conscious admission process."</p>
<p>I do admire your idealism, but until we get there, I applaud colleges' efforts to increase their diversity to more closely match the general population. They do it because it works (meaning that it helps increase the mix).</p>
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I first rather doubt the premise that any college that is co-ed would end up all female like that, but if it did, why wouldn't lots of people like to apply?
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<p>tokenadult,</p>
<p>I respect most of what you write, but you are sounding a little naive here. In fact, you already answered your own question 2 posts ago with this: </p>
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Students who come from integrated neighborhoods like the one I live in are certainly going to look for colleges at which they can meet a large variety of students from varied backgrounds.
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<p>I assume by "integrated" you mean racially integrated. But maybe I misconstrued what you meant.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, it is naive to ignore the fact that most people (especially 17-year-old teenagers) would prefer a living/learning environment where they had racially and gender similar friendship options. It would be nice if our world were not this way, but it is and I don't think many can deny it with much integrity.</p>