@FlyEagle17 No, there was no emergency counseling, just emergency funds to help you find your voice. To paraphrase a supreme court justice, the best cure for chalk is more chalk. But, no, instead of availing yourself of the opportunity for more chalk, you ran to the president to tell, while screaming about your pain and fear. That’s a kindergarten move.
@MyOdyssey What? Taunting speech is not free speech? You guys do need reeducation camps.
@Krzysmis Be quiet. You obviously know nothing about the doctrines of nonpublic fora and limited public fora as they pertain to the free speech clause of the first amendment. Until you bother to educate yourself about the free speech clause, stop spreading your insipid ignorance all over this board.
Your obvious ignorance about the free speech clause and propensity to insult others is more than annoying.
Perhaps I should drop by your house and post Hillary Clinton 2016 signs all over your front yard and chalk the same all over the front of your beautiful home. According to your “logic,” complaining about my expressive activity would be a “kindergarten move,” no?
According to your “logic,” your only appropriate response is to engage in counter graffiti with Trump slogans all over your private property - thereby further defiling your own property? Really insipid.
These students should not have responded by engaging in further vandalism directed against Emory University’s private property.
Emory-based Trump supporters have multiple avenues for expressing their views - T shirts, hats, editorials, websites, rallies, voting - none of which involving invading and vandalizing the private property of others.
Was Trump engaging in “kindergarten” behavior when he insisted on having protesters removed from his rallies? Does he need a “reeducation camp”?
@MyOdyssey watch your language grasshopper, Emory University is a liberal arts institution, and should enforce the canons of classical liberal arts education, which involves commitment to robust free exchange. I’m a paying (and donating ) customer and I demand that the University behaves accordingly. It is obviously a private operation and it might choose to behave any way it wishes, it just needs to keep in mind what happened at U of Missouri.
If you pay for my house, you are free to post signs in my yard, per Emory policy chalking is not vandalism, and the students had plenty of opportunity to respond chalk to chalk.
Trump has every right to remove people, who are preventing him from speaking. However, Nobody prevented the little babies from expressing themselves.
MrOdyssey–Do you not see the unfortunate irony of starting a post on free speech with the order to, “be quiet”?
LOL, the emergency funds were created last semester so that when tragic events go on in certain, marginalized communities they can put events for their own community. None of those funds were even used. LOL, because I wasn’t involved with the protests whatsoever, but some of my friends were and I could see where they are coming from. I actually understand where both sides are coming from. However, you @krzysmis are showing what is the problem. Everyone is touting freedom of speech, but no one is even willing to listen to others. You don’t even know what was said at the protest, but I can promise you that this goes way beyond the chalk. It has nothing to do with that anymore. It’s okay though; I’ll apparently keep being the “baby” I am.
@FlyEagle17 – I have a son at Emory, and we talk often about about this stuff. So I feel I have some basis to comment here.
My son’s best friend at Emory is an African-American kid. He’s taken 18 to 20 credit hours a semester (!!) in challenging disciplines (as opposed to ethnic studies), and he has a near perfect GPA. He doesn’t feel ‘marginalized’ or in need of counselling, because he actually went to Emory to get an education. He doesn’t self-segregate, and has friends in all sorts of Emory ‘communities’. He thought the chalkings were silly, done to some extent to get a reaction, and couldn’t believe that the perpetually aggrieved victim groups were dumb enough to bite.
In that vein, I fail to sympathize with kids, many of whom are getting a free ride at a school that’s costing our family a quarter-million dollars, because they feel marginalized. They’re marginalized by their choice, and by the poor advice and counsel of many of their ‘leaders’ on campus.
@MyOdyssey – @kaukauna already responded adequately to your rant.
I started this thread, and made it clear that my son abhors Trump. So no Trump supporters here. The graffiti nature of the chalkings is not the issue. Chalkings do not occur on my property very often, but they’re a recognized form of expression on the Emory campus. Can you imagine the reaction if four years ago the Emory president would’ve threatened to discipline students who’d chalked “Obama 2012” on the campus? Even if they were as extensive as these chalkings? He would have been declared a de facto racist.
The best piece that I’ve read discussing Wagner’s poor performance with all this and free speech rights on campus is in a left-leaning journal. I think that it’s an extraordinarily well-written article and the best one I’ve read on this whole fiasco:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/a-letter-to-emory-please-stop-fueling-trumpism/475356/#article-comments
Current Emory Student here. Yeah, I would say that most of the students here either don’t care about the issue or think that the protesters are ridiculous (myself included). It’s sad that like 40-50 students unwilling to accept that people have different views than them gets us news coverage on almost every major national outlet.
@AsleepAtTheWheel : I also didn’t like how the one student in Wheel commented that minority students struggle at Emory because they are essentially “too busy creating a safe space for themselves” (this is how I read it)…as a URM, all I could say was: “So everyone else is expected to be successful while doing many EC’s and doing things that may distract from academics, but apparently we struggle because of it”. The reality is, even if that were true, others also often struggle because of over commitment to different causes (whether they be social justice oriented or not). It isn’t limited to URMs. I also wonder what happened to the idea and fact that many URMs may come from high schools that perhaps prepare them less for academic disciplines. Despite this being a more likely reason, they basically say that there other endeavors or concerns are the main reason. They needed to learn to speak for themselves when they made that comment. I typically did just fine (my courses were very challenging, so of course I can’t claim to have kept a near perfect GPA at my peak, but my load hour wise was likely similar to the person you mention, but wasn’t balanced with GPA management in mind). Any time I did struggle, it was often because of personal issues or flat out disengagement with the coursework. It was not my lack of “safety”. Speaking of which…my friendgroup was extremely diverse and fluid and spanned the political spectrum as well and led to many interesting debates, conversations, and ideas.
Some of their ideas were strange to me and likely came from the bubble they lived in (much like mine partially come from a mix of the socioeconomic bubble I lived in and whatever I read and learned), but were worth discussion and not reprimand or immediate offense. Often our conversations with each other were not limited to surface level/emotional analysis but went much deeper. Like when two of my good friends (brilliant women) got into a debate over the strengths and limitations of unions, they went as deep as discussing overhead and profit margins of corporations and whether or not that is effected or not as opposed to just sticking to surface level “pro-democracy” or not issues. We just held each other to a higher standard and you needed to bring some knowledge or compelling anecdotes to the table for us to seriously have the conversation. There was no sitting there and getting upset over it and storming off as it was well understood that we came from different perspectives. The goal was to understand the lens through which we saw things and discover if our beliefs were based on anything tangible (like facts). It made things more interesting and less whiney/tense. I could not be friends with any of those folks if I was ultra-sensitive. I also imagine a very boring friendgroup if they had the same beliefs and perspective I had.
My Emory experience (and life in general) would be much more boring. Emory was my opportunity to break away and learn things new from what the bubble that I came from even if I didn’t like them or if they took some time or thought to understand. The social and intellectual experience of college (especially at an elite one) should be as diverse as one’s academic course load and hopefully the two are coupled in some way. I would have to wonder if this is the case for many. If your academics are not challenging you to view things in a different light and then sharing the things you learn with others outside of the classroom, then something isn’t right. It basically means I check off boxes (courses) and then never challenge my own beliefs based on something I learned, run back to my comfort zone (perhaps a group of friends that does completely agree with everything I do- then some may also just take courses within their comfort zone which also not good if you want a richer, more trans-formative experience), and never discuss new perspectives or ideas (basically refuse to entertain or even engage other things I am supposedly learning). I do not accept the idea that a college education should send you off exactly the same as you left and I fear that it will for many simply because they find various ways of protecting themselves from the new and certainly the uncomfortable.
@Benjamin243 : But it is no different from the news coverage from say Yale I think. Also, given most of the students that go to these type of schools…the “negative” press may paint Emory in a good light to prospective students (it says, hey a decent chunks believe the same stuff I do). And regardless of whether students care about this particular issue or not. The big picture (free speech, etc) is worth a discussion and students at Emory should perhaps care more. The apathy thing is one of the issues that many prospectives don’t like about Emory because busyness is a poor excuse for it because there are more intense private schools academically where students care enough to discuss such occurences at dinner tables to suggest that a forum be held. The general apathy or even obliviousness at Emory is one of the traits that makes the school seem “boring” in comparison to the super elites (I would say top 10) or near peers like Brown (and maybe Rice and GT) for example. If we don’t have D-1 sports pride, the intellectual atmosphere should compensate. The relative lack of fallout after the departmental closings, and how quickly that blew over at Emory disappointed me. Especially the relatively small reaction from undergraduates. It almost makes one wonder, “What do we care about other than our grades and ECs? Do we care about Emory?”
@AsleepAtTheWheel Although I agree overall with the tenor of your remarks, i have to disagree on the atlantic piece. I think it’s fundamentally misguided and assumes the left wing narrative of liberation. The point of liberal education is to make out groups into enlightened citizens. In a sense, to subsume their identity into something greater.
Here, I have to take to task the current majority of students, who just look at the outrages of the militants and shrug, like it does not concern them. That’s false, however. The little red guards are actively trying to limit free speech on campus by administrative measures. This has to be vigorously countered. Illiberalism has to be fought out in the open.
MyOdyssey is right in one respect here. It was cowardly for the trump supporters not to do it out in the open.
@krzysmis – I think we’re more or less on the same page here. There was a bunch of stuff in the Atlantic article with which I didn’t agree. I thought that they did a good job pointing out how poorly Wagner had reacted, EVEN IF you agreed with his political viewpoint (which I don’t). His comments/actions were not just wrong, but his strategic approach was bad even if he’d been right.
A few things:
- Please don’t use the argument of my son’s friend is black and he didn’t find it offensive, so why do other underrepresented minorities find it offensive. Just because two people are black does not mean that they respond to something in the same way. The Trump markings on campus affected the Latinx community more so, but the black community wanted to stand in solidarity.
- “They’re marginalized by their choice” and “He doesn’t self-segregate”. Both these statements you made piss me off. What do you mean by “self-segregate”? When white people hang out with other white people, it’s not called self-segregation; it’s only when people of color hang out with other people of color it is called so. What does the financial aid status of a student have to do with whether or not they are marginalized? You made the decision to pay a quarter of a million dollars but whatever I must be one of those freeloaders (even though I’m on an academic scholarship).
- I just want to be clear and say that I see where you’re coming from, but why not also take the time to understand where others are coming from. It’s not even about the chalk! I initially didn’t find it offensive, but I feel where certain people are coming from.
- This is coming from an African American male who is involved in all spheres of campus, double majoring in NBB and the “ethnic studies” major you brought up, has taken 22 credit hours since sophomore year, and has a 3.75GPA.
@FlyEagle17 – Got it. Really. Best of luck to you.
@FlyEagle17 : I ignored the thing about the financial aid as I know that isn’t how it works…there is a separate endowment for scholarships and even Emory Advantage (coming more from gifts and philanthropy and not tuition funds…these non-tuition funds are indeed strained, but that is where a signficant chunk or majority came from), so I ignore when folks attempt to suggest that they are essentially subsidizing other students (BTW, many non-URMs are on Emory Advantage as URMs at Emory are often upper-middle class or come in with sizeable scholarships such Gates-Millennium or QB. Also, if over 20% of Emory students qualify and have Pell Grants, then it is unlikely that all 20-25% are URMs. Maybe half at best as many hispanic/Latino students are international and thus had to be able to afford to come. It is difficult to get need-based aid if you are an international student). The other weakness in that statement is that it suggests that those who are financed are also not entitled to complaints. Only those who pay in full are. This idea can reinforce the feeling of otherness. And honestly, I think I’ve seen full pay students be quite petty as well, and not over social justice issues. Many are paying all this money to basically not receive an education from what I see…so it is kind of poor to single out URMs. I attempted to avoid addressing that and tried to share my experience and opinions, but it did bother. I just didn’t want one of those notorious flame wars that happen in types of social media.
@FlyEagle17 The problem you (and your friends) have is the assumption that the fact that some speech offends you is of any importance one way or another. You can feel sorry for yourself all you want, but you will not be allowed to attempt to suppress the offensive speech by administrative measures. You want to argue back, hell, you want to offend some people (within reason) by babbling about your victimhood, by all means get some chalk, but the basic principles of liberal arts education will not be compromised no matter your feelings.
@bernie12 Money is fungible and yes, those paying the full fare are subsidizing everybody else. Not to mention, those who pay the full ride are constant target of donations pitch from Emory. Why is it relevant? Because, if Emory attempts to indulge the left-wing militancy by actively persecuting offensive speech, I promise you, there will be consequences.
Campuses have become sad spectacles of toxic narcissism aided and abetted by spineless administrations and largely the inattention of the outside world. You got the attention now.
To put it somewhat melodramatically using some ancient language, the enemies of open society will not be negotiated with.
Some comic belief on this issue. In any case, you know you have blown something when others are laughing at you about it to your face, while you continue to be serious.
Note: Some statements in it are NSFW.
I can see how people would get offended (although they seriously have to learn how to deal with it, its real life). But Wagner’s way of handling this situation was downright horrible and tainted the reputation of Emory.
I love Emory and for the most part am proud of my school. But, for this incident I am completely embarrased. I’m not going to go all political in it on a CC post but seriously some people need to get a grip.
@krzysmis and others – I think that you’ll find this (incredibly well-written) article more to your liking. Heather MacDonald writes all sorts of neat stuff, and she really dissects Wagner’s embarrassing performance in all this. She also picks up on the increasingly common meme that the reason that affirmative action admits perform poorly academically at selective colleges is that they’re so busy creating a ‘safe space’ for themselves. Here you go:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/hey-college-ninnies%E2%80%94grow-14312.html
Hopefully some other coddled kids and another idiot college president will do something soon to take Emory out of the limelight. Really takes value away from the degree of the hard-working kids that are there.
And a wonderful piece by an Emory professor: