<p>
</p>
<p>No, it wouldn’t.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, state schools would suffer and the non-HYP Ivy League schools would be pushed down the list by Amherst and Williams, with other top LACs pushing down the top universities.</p>
<p>IBclass06,</p>
<p>I saw you posted some stats on the first page. Can you post how many students got into Harvard Law - which for me is the most prestigious law school in the universe - from Berkeley, Michigan, UVA, UCLA, William & Mary, UNC and Wisconsin? And, if it’s possible, kindly include USC too. Thank you in advance. :)</p>
<p>
Sure. </p>
<p>
2007
Berkeley 48
UCLA 39
Michigan 23
UVA 19
UNC 13
USC 13
Wisconsin 4
W&M 3</p>
<p>2006
Berkeley 43
UCLA 41
Michigan 24
UVA 23
UNC 13
USC 11
W&M 7
Wisconsin 5</p>
<p>2005
Berkeley 36
UCLA 35
UVA 21
Michigan 18
UNC 14
USC 10
W&M 7
Wisconsin 5</p>
<p>2004
UCLA 43
Berkeley 38
Michigan 23
UVA 21
UNC 13
W&M 9
USC 8
Wisconsin 7</p>
<p>2003
Berkeley 48
UCLA 33
Michigan 29
UVA 22
USC 12
UNC 11
Wisconsin 10
W&M 6</p>
<p>Total
Berkeley 213
UCLA 191
Michigan 117
UVA 106
UNC 64
USC 54
W&M 32
Wisconsin 31</p>
<p>Average
Berkeley 43
UCLA 38
Michigan 23
UVA 21
UNC 13
USC 11
W&M 6
Wisconsin 6
</p>
<p>The OP clearly has the need for some professional help regarding his obsession with Penn and the need to bash the school. He is not the only one on this forum. Why has Penn attracted such wrath? It must be because these posters thought they should have been admitted and weren’t?? So Penn isn’t Harvard or Yale? Who really cares? Not everyone can ATTEND Harvard or Yale (et al) and not every distinguished professor can TEACH at those schools. It may come as a shock that Harvard et al are not even everyone’s first choice for undergrad, grad or career!<br>
If anyone should have an axe to grind with Penn, it should be me! I’m never going to get to retire because of the tuition payments! 
I don’t think the place is perfect, but neither is anyplace else. I can assure you that the students at Penn are not nearly as obsessed with all these statistics as the people on this forum seem to be.</p>
<p>
Oh yes they are. Or Penn wouldn’t jump to 4 from out of the top 20. In fact, I think Penn students are the most stats obsessed. The Ivy League label really reeled them in.</p>
<p>^^ Wrong. Once a student matriculates at Penn, the rankings are an item of curiosity, but not something about which to assess. I haven’t seen the t-shirts yet that say “US NEWS No. 4”.</p>
<p>Thank you, IBclass06.</p>
<p>From your data, it appeared that Berkeley, UCLA and Michigan have a clear lead over the rest of the elite state universities in HBS admissions, something that I didn’t really expect given Berkeley’s and UCLA’s distance from Boston/Cambridge. It also reinforces my old notion that USC is just hype and isn’t really that great in terms of preparation to elite law schools.</p>
<p>
Penn didn’t “jump to 4 from out of the top 20.” It was ranked at 11-16 from the 1991 through the 1997 rankings, has been ranked at 4-7 each year for the past 13 years (beginning with the 1998 ranking, published in 1997), and has been ranked at #4 in 4 of the last 8 rankings:</p>
<p>[U.S</a>. News Rankings Through the Years](<a href=“http://web.archive.org/web/20070908142457/http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/]U.S”>U.S. News Rankings Through the Years)</p>
<p>Furthermore, you have absolutely NO IDEA what “reeled in” most Penn students, and obviously know very little about the extraordinary academic, research, and extra-curricular opportunities Penn offers to undergraduates.</p>
<p>The degree of arrogance combined with ignorance in some posts on CC can be quite astounding.</p>
<p>RML, you do have to take into consideration the size of those schools though. UCLA, Berkeley, and Michigan are all very, very large universities, while many of the others on that list are pretty small comparatively, such as W&M and UVa.</p>
<p>
Accounting for each school’s size (HLS / A&S undergraduates x 10000), you get:</p>
<ol>
<li>Berkeley 43 17701 24.2</li>
<li>UVA 21 10191 20.6</li>
<li>UCLA 38 21552 17.6</li>
<li>Michigan 23 16309 14.1</li>
<li>W&M 6 5388 11.1</li>
<li>UNC 13 12560 10.4</li>
<li>USC 11 16500 6.67</li>
<li>Wisconsin 6 17865 3.36</li>
</ol>
<p>*NOTE: When LSAT scores are accounted for, all universities stay the same except UNC and W&M; UNC passes William & Mary. Despite having an average LSAT score 5 points lower, UNC sends nearly as many students to Harvard Law per capita as William & Mary. </p>
<p>While some might allege that UNC has a higher average GPA to compensate, average GPA data does not bear this out. UNC has a 0.10 lower average GPA than William & Mary.*</p>
<p>Penn is an outstanding university. Although many would argue its spot on the USNWR, I think the ranking is only taken seriously by high school students. There are other great universities that place many students into the top medical, business, and law schools. All public universities suffer in terms of ranking. Schools like Berkeley, Michigan and UCLA are prime examples. Do these rankings affect public universities in terms of prestige and popularity to the outside world? No. </p>
<p>Penn and the other ivy league schools are always going to be highly ranked and highly sought by high school students. Penn’s PA rating is more realistic in defining the strength of Penn’s overall academic programs and placement.</p>
<p>Yale’s dean of admissions, Jeff Brenzel dislikes USNWR rankings entirely. He states that the rankings are based off of superficial aspects that don’t define how great a university is or can be. The OP is obviously trying to prove that Penn doesn’t deserve to be #4 on the ranking. Even though its placements into top schools aren’t as high as its ranking, Penn is still a great university nonetheless.</p>
<p>Maybe after spending 4 years in a crappy part of Philadelphia, the students aren’t eager to spend 3 more years in an even crappier area of New Haven.</p>
<p>^^ That is actually a very good point. I know a lot of Penn kids are really “over” the northeast. A lot wind up staying due to contacts, etc., but some want to try something else. Atlanta, DC, LA look pretty good.
I know a few Penn kids applying to law school and they don’t even have Yale or Harvard on the list, despite good LSAT scores.</p>
<p>You can’t account for school size entirely either while figuring averages. Most smaller schools don’t offer anywhere near the breadth of majors and schools/colleges than very large universities like Berkeley. Michigan, and UCLA have. For example, I can almost guarantee you a much higher percentage of UVA students are interested in attending law school than Michigan students.</p>
<p>Why do you always point to US News to validte Penn’s academic standing.</p>
<p>Execept for Penn lum controlled US News, 3-5 other more objective ranking such as</p>
<ol>
<li>Forbes</li>
<li>Shanghai Jiaton’s world wide university ranking</li>
<li>QS world’s top university ranking</li>
<li>PayScale, </li>
</ol>
<p>all ranked Penn outside of top 10. Forbes, Penn is only 83. Exclude the RateProfessor.com’s ranking, Penn’s performance in Who’s Who, Student performance, faculty performance, graduate performance in top PhD program, top professionl progs are beyond top 15, often tops beyond top 20 or top 50.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I can imagine. Yale is forever damned to the unfathomable abyss of #2.</p>
<p>Penn is a second-rate school, we get it.</p>
<p>
We still beat Dartmouth and Cornell. Cornell College beat Cornell. Forbes rankings are a joke, but because they ranked Penn 83 you seem to think they are more correct than US News which puts Penn at #4. I’d say most people would think 4 is closer to Penn’s “real” ranking than 83.</p>
<p>Lol Y7ongjun you want to play the ranking list game? Look at the Times Higher Ed ranking which places Penn at 11, one spot above Princeton–in the world. Please stop this ridiculousness.</p>
<p>
Penn is ranked 11 by QS World Ranking and the 7th US university.
[QS</a> Top Universities: Top 200 universities in the THE - QS World University Rankings 2008](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/fullrankings/]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/fullrankings/)</li>
</ol>
<p>Isn’t payscalse self reported? And on that New York Times ranking from payscale, isn’t Penn top 10?</p>
<p>LOL. Back in my day, Penn was by consensus the bottom of the Ivy League. Has it really improved so much? Or is it smoke and mirrors? Hard to say, but I do know my D wasn’t impressed when we visited. That’s basically all we need to know. Where it properly ranks is for others to fight about.</p>
<p>As for top law schools, I think it’'s silly to look only at Yale, or only at Harvard. Most legal academics would say Yale is #1 right now & has been for some time, but after a down period Harvard is back and pushing Yale for preeminence. But regardless of which is #1 and which #2, you’ve also got to look at other top law schools like Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Michigan, Penn, Stanford, and Berkeley. Not sure where Penn undergrad would stand in admissions to that group of law schools. The WSJ rankings are pretty bogus as they exclude a lot of top law schools, they don’t have separate breakouts for law schools (as opposed to med schools and MBA programs), and have a distinct Northeast bias in the selection of “top” programs. In addition, they’re now quite dated. My guess us Penn would fare reasonably well but not clearly above the undergrad performance of these other schools, and behind many of them. But maybe someone else can ferret out the data.</p>