<p>yeah, get the figures for acceptance from the T14’s, not just for Yale and Harvard Law.</p>
<p>
While “smoke and mirrors” is the facile canard often alleged by those unaware of the facts (and I don’t mean to imply that you fall into that group 
), the true story of Penn’s significant improvement as an undergraduate institution over the past 15 years is quite detailed and substantial. For those interested in fact and substance, I’d strongly recommend perusing these 2 multi-page articles from the beginning of this decade:</p>
<p>[Sept/Oct</a> Gazette: How Excellent?](<a href=“Penn: Page not found”>Penn: Page not found)</p>
<p>[Sept/Oct</a> Gazette: Assessing the Agenda](<a href=“Penn: Page not found”>Penn: Page not found)</p>
<p>Some “inconvenient truths” for the conspiracy theorists out there. ;)</p>
<p>^ Did Al Gore make a Power Point presentation on that subject? ;)</p>
<p>^ He’s workin’ on it. :p</p>
<p>^ Heh, he’s moved on to more important things, I guess… Do you know if Donald Trump makes a cameo appearance?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Doubtful. No cameos for The Donald–not his style. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>“So Harvard has three graduate programs listed, Chicago, Columbia and Yale have two and Penn only has one. If Penn’s medical or law school had been chosen (and there can be a case for both of them being in the top 5), then Penn’s percentages would be quite different. In addition, even though they have two graduate programs listed, both Columbia (no. 11) and Chicago (no.14) barely surpass Penn (no. 16)”</p>
<p>Stanford has a top 2 business school and a top 3 law school. If Penn’s medical school can make a top-5 claim, so can Stanford’s. Despite WSJ’s exclusion of Stanford’s professional schools from the study, Stanford (which unfortunately is tied at #4 with Penn) easily outperforms Penn. </p>
<p>Care to explain? Or do you need more time to come up with more excuses?</p>
<p>“So Penn isn’t Harvard or Yale?”</p>
<p>Understatement of the century. </p>
<p>Also, Penn isn’t Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, etc. But who’s counting?</p>
<p>Guess what? Penn OBJECTIVELY isn’t ranked correctly on the WSJ feeder list. It lists Penn’s class size as 2785 when in fact it’s closer to 2400. That gives it a feeder score of 6.375%, placing it at #13 on the list. If we really want to be nitpicky, we should consider only Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences and School of Engineering and Applied Science (which the other schools only possess), putting the class size around 1800. But, you say, some Wharton and Nursing students apply to grad school. For comparisons sake lets just put the class size at 2000. That makes the feeder score 7.65%, putting Penn at #9.</p>
<p>Of course, none of that really makes sense anyway because it points out the flaws of the rankings–that only the number of people who applied to grad school should be used, and in this particular ranking, maybe even those who applied specifically to the grad schools used.</p>
<p>ITT: a college is but a number</p>
<p>Penn can not place its students into CalTech’s physics PhD program. </p>
<p>Harvard physics department seems not like Penn student either. For the Past 10 years from 2000-2009, none or at most 1 student from Penn graduated with a PhD in Harvard Physics department.</p>
<p>Stanford, MIT is more than 10 times better than Penn despite its # 4 ranking tied with Penn in US News. </p>
<p>Penn has much worse placement than either Stanford or MIT in placing students into top professional medical, law and business schools. Penn is worse than all Ivy (except Cornell) in placing students to top professional programs.</p>
<p>Penn is worse than non-Ivy school such as UChicago and Duke in placement.</p>
<p>Here is the rank of colleges based on its placement into Harvard physics department. </p>
<p>Ranking College NumberPhD
1 Princeton 19
2 Stanford 18
3 Harvard 14
4 MIT 11
5 Uchicago 8
6 Yale 7
7 CalTech 6
8 Michigan 6
9 Berkeley 5
10 Duke 4
11 Brown 4
12 Dartmouth 3
13 Columbia 3
14 Cornell 3
15 Texas Austin 4
16 UCLA 3
17 Swarthmore 2
18 Williams 2
19 Harverford 2
20 Brigham Young 2
21 Case Western 2
22 Wshington STL 2
23 Maryland 2
24 Rice 1
25 Vanderbilt 1
26 NYU 1
27 Leheigh 1
28 Ohio State 1
29 Illinois 1
30 Bates 1
31 Florida 1
32 Colorado 1
33 Prurdue 1
34 Missouri 1
35 Harvey Mudd 1
36 Calvin College 1
37 Trinity College 1
38 Mt. Holyoke 1
39 Virgnia Polytech 1
40 Wheaton College 1
41 Tennessee State U 1
42 Penn 1 or 0 ? You check</p>
<p>^^^^Wow look at Michigan and Berkeley on that list. Neither public school is rated in the top 20 at USNWR.</p>
<p>Well according to USNRW Penn is … and it’s ranked. But it dropped, and selectivity … yield. Not even an Ivy. And Harvard … STATISTICS, BLAH BLAH numbers and percentages. Top 20, and T14 … Penn is awesome, Penn sucks. Yale Law. More numbers and lists.</p>
<p>
Neither is BYU. Are you willing to accept that list as a demonstration of academic quality and therefore renounce your claim that
</p>
<p>Yeah, I thought not.</p>
<p>Y7,
I’m assuming you got your Harvard physics numbers from the list of past Thesis because I can’t find a list of undergrad schools for Harvard PhD students anywhere else. If it is, Penn has one undergrad listed and two Master’s students listed. That doesn’t include Penn students who are currently in the program nor ones who never finished.</p>
<p>IBClass, what the heck are you talking about?</p>
<p>IB. HYP, Berkeley, and Michigan are all far superior to BYU. According to that list, BYU might be better than Penn. ;-)</p>
<p>^BYU vs Penn is whether the Mormons or the Quakers are correct. According to South Park, the Mormons are correct, so all the people at Penn should transfer to BYU.</p>
<p>
Hey, don’t shoot the messenger. I’m just going by the list!</p>
<p>Princeton 19
Stanford 18</p>
<p>Michigan 6
Berkeley 5</p>
<p>Brigham Young 2</p>
<p>If one uses this list as a measure of undergraduate quality, one could readily draw the conclusion that BYU is as close to Michigan and Berkeley in quality as those two are to Princeton and Stanford in quality.</p>
<p>
If we play that game, then the state schools in CA can take away their other colleges, their transfers out of the total.</p>