Female MIT applicants/students

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
21

<p>The major distribution is not neutral. I know this because I actually attended the school. EECS, one of the hardest two or 3 majors, was pretty male-dominated. I think aerospace was as well. And at the time I went there, 60% of MIT undergrads majored in EECS (course 6.) So this difference could easily absorb the small average GPA difference.</p>

<p>Another thing to consider is that the different majors don't even curve the same. I found that the curve in chemistry was easier than the curve in EECS.</p>

<p>So the point here is that you can't draw any conclusion from the data in either direction.</p>

22

<p>At this point I am just reading the points of view and the discussions are actually very interesting. That said I am going to give you guys some data to use that I compiled the other day when I was curious about the MIT academics. Keep in mind that I believe MIT is currently 46% female and 54% male. Here are the percentage of females in the following majors for sophomore - 5th year added (freshman I guess have not declared yet). The list shows course (repeated names mean there were subdivisions I did not feel like typing but you get the point), % and then total students in course.</p>

<p>Architecture 66% - 50
Urban studies 68% - 22
Aerospace - program 1 30% - 171
aerospace - program 2 28% - 18
biological engineering 61% - 74
chemical engineering 49% - 94
chemical biological engineering 58% - 146
chemical engineering - again? 67% - 3
civil engineering 25% - 9
civil engineering 48% - 42
civil engineering 32% - 37
electrical science and engineering 38% - 94
electrical engineering and computer science 31% - 304
computer science and engineering 24% - 251
electrical science and engineering 40% - 10
electrical engineering and computer science 42% - 12
computer science and engineering 0% - 2
materials science and engineering 42% - 79
materials science and engineering 60% - 5
material science and engineering 100% - 1
mechanical engineering 36% - 303
mechanical engineering 38% - 90
mechanical and ocean engineering 54% - 13
nuclear science and engineering 31% - 45
economics 44% - 68
anthropology 100% - 1
foreign languages 100% - 1
history 100% - 3
literature 100% - 2
music and theater 67% - 3
writing and humanistic studies 100% - 3
humanities 100% - 1
humanities and engineering 60% - 5
humanities and science 100% - 2
linguistics and philosophy 50% - 8
political science 40% - 20
comparative media studies 64% - 11
management 43% - 200
biology 70% - 198
biology 83% - 6
brain and cognitive studies 79% - 146
chemistry 53% - 92
earth, atmospheric and planetary science 70% - 33
mathematics 32% - 185
mathematics with computer science 38% - 24
physics 31% - 179
physics 60% - 5</p>

23

<p>^^ If you care to do more research, going back 30 years, you can construct trendlines for each of these fields. In most of the sciences, you'll find a falling trendline of male enrollment, and a rising trendline of female enrollment.</p>

24

<p>Typing one year was enough for me.</p>

<p>Leaving the analysis to all of you with more experience.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
And at the time I went there, 60% of MIT undergrads majored in EECS (course 6.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Back In The Day...;)</p>

<p>(It is currently 16%, for anyone who was wondering.)</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
If what Mollie asserts is really true that admissions is identical for males and females, then MIT should simply come out and say that they do not practice AA for girls.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They repeatedly have. Ben Jones on these boards and Stu Schmill, Director of Admissions on the MIT admissions site. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The major distribution is not neutral. I know this because I actually attended the school. EECS, one of the hardest two or 3 majors, was pretty male-dominated.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is a common myth that women select "easier majors". This was already repudiated back in 1995 following a detailed female enrollment study at MIT. In particular it states:</p>

<p>
[quote]
In addition, the data contradicts, for MIT, some of the hypotheses that are often put forward to explain why relatively fewer women than men major in EE and CS. It's common to observe that women are generally not as attracted engineering fields as are men. While this is true nationally (see figure 13 below), MIT students form a very distinct population. As shown in figure 1, the ratio of women to men in engineering is virtually the same as the ratio of women to men for all S.B. degrees--an MIT woman was just as likely as an MIT man to receive a degree in an engineering field.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It also concludes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The data also discredits the view sometimes expressed that women, more than men, tend to avoid rigid programs in favor of programs with more electives. Chemical engineering, which attracts the relatively largest number of women, is also the program at MIT with the largest number of requirements and the fewest number of electives.

[/quote]

Male/Female</a> enrollment patterns in EECS</p>

<p>ChemE and MechE do not have an easier curve than EE and EE is the third most common major for women. Women also have reportedly higher average grades than men in the GIR classes that all freshmen have to take. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And at the time I went there, 60% of MIT undergrads majored in EECS (course 6.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>EECS enrollment never represented 60% of all undergrads. More like 30% historically according to the Course 6 website. According to the Tech, the peak in Course 6 enrollment was in 2001 at the tail end of the internet bubble at around 37% of undergrads. It is about half that level now or around 18%. Total engineering enrollment has declined from a peak of 66% to 50% currently.</p>

27

<p>"They repeatedly have. Ben Jones on these boards and Stu Schmill, Director of Admissions on the MIT admissions site. "</p>

<p>No, they haven't. They have said that the disparity in admission percentage of male and females can be explained by self-selection. They have not come out and said that is the sole reason for the disparity. If there truly is no AA for women at MIT, then they should just say that. If they have said this somewhere and I missed it, then I invite you to provide a link. </p>

<p>"That is a common myth that women select "easier majors"."</p>

<p>Look at smoda's post listing the percentage of women in each of the majors. I agree chemE is difficult and it is virtually 50-50 male-female. However, it is quite clear that more women are in biology (70%) and cognitive science (79%). Also, aerospace, course 6 (EECS), mech E, math and physics are disproportionately male. Again, all I'm saying is that the small difference in average GPA could be explained by this.</p>

28

<p>W/ reference to "As shown in figure 1, the ratio of women to men in engineering is virtually the same as the ratio of women to men for all S.B. degrees--an MIT woman was just as likely as an MIT man to receive a degree in an engineering field."</p>

<p>MB I misinterpreted data but from the numbers on the charts that I found, females make up 36% of the engineering students while they make up 46% of the undergrads.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
However, it is quite clear that more women are in biology (70%) and cognitive science (79%).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, let's play the "diss the life science majors" game, 'cause the life sciences aren't hard at all, dontcha know? There's that song about MIT being easy if you study biology, so it must be true, right? Or maybe it's true because it was true a long time ago, and of course those sciences haven't developed at <em>all</em> since then.</p>

<p>Sorry, sore point with me. I worked damn hard for my degree. And I took plenty of classes in other departments, and have some idea about relative difficulty.</p>

<p>At any rate, we have gotten away from the original subject in this thread and onto one of the endless debates of whether the women are deserving or not. I think it is a testament to the relatively good state of gender relations at MIT that I never heard one of those debates among actual MIT students.</p>

30

<p>If anything, the only major that could be considered "easier" to get a high GPA in is the management major which is male dominated. I would also argue it is signficantly easier to get a perfect GPA in the math and physics departments because of the small number of required subjects and the small numbers of students in each class. This is very hard to achieve in chemistry, the life sciences or engineering, majors with few electives.</p>

<p>The larger the number of students in a class the harder the curve as you are competing against a larger set of equally qualified students. The life sciences majors are notoriously hard because of the large numbers of pre med students taking organic chem and related classes where the competition for grades is fierce.</p>

31

<p>^^Most of your info is second-hand knowledge. You were not an undergrad here. I don't know why you think there is more flexibility for a physics major than a bio major in terms of electives. I've heard they've lessened the requirements, but it used to have a ridiculous amount of required classes. I think you must be referring to the applied math major.</p>

<p>Also, I took organic chem and didn't think the competition particularly fierce, especially compared to course 6. I think most chem E's thought that their pure chemistry classes were significantly easier to do well in than their chem E classes. </p>

<p>BTW, jessiehl, I don't look down on the life sciences. I do research in the life sciences, actually. It's a noble profession.</p>

32

<p>"At any rate, we have gotten away from the original subject in this thread and onto one of the endless debates of whether the women are deserving or not."</p>

<p>Well, it seems the debate we are having now is whether the men are deserving or not.</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
Most of your info is second-hand knowledge. You were not an undergrad here.

[/quote]

Anecdotal or outdated information is certainly no better. At least I refer to published information.</p>

34

<p>Okay then, how about this: I actually GO here. Now. (Although, Mollie and Jess are only 2 and 1 year(s) removed.)</p>

<p>Women are "underrepresented" in engineering at MIT. This is a FACT. The numbers support it. If you would like me to relate the case a little more strongly: women are underrepresented in mechanical engineering at MIT. This is also a FACT. I can state this because I GO to those classes. There are far more men than women. In a lab session/project team of last semester I was the only girl among 10 students.</p>

<p>Whether or not mechanical engineering is "harder" than biology is not a debate I'm willing to have, mostly because I'm only majoring in one of them and don't have the necessary data to compare. If anyone reading this is majoring or has majored in what is typical considered one "easy" major and one "hard" major would like to comment, go ahead. Until then, NONE of us have the authority to say that any one is harder than the other. GPAs are really only good when comparing apples to apples.</p>

<p>The number of students in the class rarely has anything to do with the way it is graded. Statements like "I would also argue it is signficantly easier to get a perfect GPA in the math and physics departments because of the small number of required subjects and the small numbers of students in each class" basically translate to "Look at me! I've never taken a test at MIT! Listen to me not know what I'm talking about!"</p>

35

<p>So, back to the original subject, which asked about the "female experience" at MIT. I'm the parent of an MIT female physics major, and here's a true story about her choice between Caltech and MIT. When she visited Caltech she had conversations with physics majors and a physics professor. She asked, "Why is the percentage of females at Caltech low?" The answer she heard was "The number of women are low because the women's SAT scores are lower in math and science." Later that day she repeated this conversation to me, stating, "I'm not going to apply here." I asked, "When you were told those things by the students and the professor, did you tell them your SAT scores?" (Hey, I asked because she had dialed toll-free, so to speak) Her answer: "What's the point? If I came to Caltech, I'd have to tape those scores to my back every day to prove myself." In contrast, when she visited MIT she also met and talked with physics majors and with two professors in the physics department. The head of undergrad physics told her this when she asked whether there were females in the department: "Come to MIT to study physics. Some of my best students are female."</p>

<p>Now, I only speak with my daughter once a week. My role on this board is simply as a MIT Parent-Connect volunteer, so I'm usually looking to answer questions that might interest parents. But this topic interests me, and I can tell you that my daughter feels totally at home at MIT, and she has never felt the need to "prove" herself to anyone.</p>

36

<p>CalAlum, I think you have grossly misinterpreted what that Caltech professor meant. I believe he was talking about the applicant pool, not the admitted pool.</p>

37

<p>^^ What makes you believe anyone misinterpreted that comment? She did understand the comment as relating to the applicant pool. She could have said to the professor that perhaps the scores of the applicant pool are low because some females self-select to apply elsewhere (as she did). I don't know whether the conversation went that far.</p>

38

<p>I don't think GPA is necessarily the best way to measure... intelligence? </p>

<p>Also, the admissions office's comments on how the girls are in general better in the applicant pool falls apart when you realize that SAT scores, science fair awards, etc etc do not tell the whole story. It is hard to express the magnitude of a decade of programming experience, etc etc on an application, and many people don't feel it necessary to (programming is an example...). But it's the type of thing that can give you a HUGE advantage at MIT. </p>

<p>In summary, it's very very hard to compare the intelligence of two people when you are at the level of MIT students. From my experience, girls seem to be just fine at MIT. I don't think they are much better or worse than the guys. I also don't think most people at MIT really care too much about whether they are beating everyone of the other gender. Most people are too busy just trying to solve problems and do interesting things.</p>

39

<p>Also, CalAlum, I believe your daughter is a freshmen? I think it would take 2-3 years of anecdotes from her to be able to accurately relay any kind of real information about MIT (other than just what freshmen year is like). Also I don't know about your daughter, but I don't tell my parents about all the stressful things here (I usually give them happy report so they feel happy and then everyone is happy and they don't bug me). </p>

<p>I think your daughter may have a different optimism when she is in the middle of her killer institute labs junior year. From my experience, things got way harder when I went from GIR's to courses in my major (6), and I believe this is similar for most people at MIT.</p>

40

<p>

This is basically my position on the matter as well.</p>