Filling out App causes reality check!

BeezMom · October 3, 2009, 1:35pm

Or....what a long strange trip it's been.

In my 6 months on this board, I've learned there are two rules:
1. Don't do performance if you can visualize doing anything else
2. Music Ed should NOT be a Plan B.
After lots of discussion and thought, my D had decided that her dream was Vocal Performance. At least, it was until she had to check the box on the application, and had to answer an essay question that asked "Where do you picture yourself in 10 years?"

There was something about that question that really caused her to look at what she truly wanted out of her life - not the fantasy dream, but the real thing. Add that to the fact that when you ask people to describe her, the response is regularly compassionate, caring, the one who takes care of everyone. Guess what?

I'm now the proud parent of a potential Music Ed Major/Vocal Concentration. Makes the college decision a LOT easier for us. Now she just has to tell her voice teacher.....

I'm posting this to share in case there are other parents out there going through this. Thank goodness we love our children, because this is enough to drive you crazy!!!

SJTH · October 3, 2009, 1:39pm

I know that application! Good for your daughter, Beezmom–especially good for her that she took the question to heart, and really THOUGHT about it, vs. just answering it to say what admissions officers want to hear or some other iteration. I think this is Fab!

BeezMom · October 3, 2009, 1:47pm

Thanks! I was stunned at first, and thought it was cold feet. But she walked me through her thought process and then started getting really excited about what she could achieve as an educator. As she was practicing for today’s AllState rehearsal, she said “If I’m really good, then maybe I can conduct my own All State choir someday”. Definitely a Plan A!

cartera45 · October 3, 2009, 1:50pm

Beezmom - it’s good to know the applications are worthwhile after all. Remember that choosing music ed does not limit her if she should decide later to focus on performing. Lots of music ed majors decide to go on for graduate degrees in performance. If that is a possibility, she may want to focus on schools at which the music ed kids and the VP kids are treated equally.

violadad · October 3, 2009, 2:13pm

Many are unhappy about doing “double duty”, and many are unsure if performance or ed is “their” path. Our personal experience is that even if a student has a foot firmly implanted in both camps, they can still be torn.

The basic caveat is don’t push your student to ed (or performance). Better yet, don’t push period. Give them the support and backing to allow them to make their own conscious and informed choice.

BeezMom, to you and d, the best of luck in the app and audition process.

Dadofclard · October 4, 2009, 2:37am

Violadad, I think you are spot-on (once again).

D, a HS Sr, has an outstanding, exacting private teacher, who is now strongly urging all of the students to go for MusEd rather than than Performance, due to the absolute dearth of opportunities to make a living in Performance.

But, in looking carefully at the requirements for a BM (or even a BS) in MusEd at various schools, we are not seeing much opportunity, in the form of music electives, to explore other possible careers in music. D’s HS offers little help to a serious musician in exploring the world of music, other than Marching and Concert Band where the number of students taking private lessons can be counted on the fingers of one hand without having to use the thumb. Fortunately, she took the Music Theory class before it was eliminated this year. In the class she received a small taste of Music Composition, which intrigued her.

D can see herself as a Music Educator, but would MusEd as an undergraduate limit her music exploration? She swears she wants MusEd, but her No. 1 is a university that doesn’t offer undergraduate MusEd, instead allowing application into an extra-year Masters/Teacher Certification type program.

So, is Performance the best way to allow exploration of “other, unknown-at-this-time” musical pursuits, such as Composition? If she does Performance and decides later that Teaching really is her bag, can a Teacher Certification year/year-and-a-half provide an equivalent preparation for a teaching career as a BM in MusEd?

violadad · October 4, 2009, 8:31am

The typical music ed BM curriculum is a highly structured and sequenced set of coursework in theory, aural training, piano/keyboard classes, a fair amount of music history, as well as basic intro coursework in some cross discipline training (vocal/choral work for instrumentalists, and vice-versa), intro methods classes for teaching a broad range of instruments, a couple of semesters of conducting and composition, overview and specific coursework in the standard techniques and various music teaching methods. Some of the hands on work will involve off-site observation classwork and practicums. There’s also the required ensemble participation requirements including rehearsals, private instruction and studio time. And of course the student teaching semester.

Add in some mandated academic work in specific subjects required for (a) state’s certification/licensure requirements (if the program is geared to producing “license ready” graduates). These will normally include a year of English, a US History, a basic math and science, a health course; beyond that there is the historical and applied general educational methodology and psychology specific coursework geared to ed majors.

Finally, there’s usually a few mandated cross discipline courses required for all degree candidates regardless of major.

There ain’t much room for “fat”. It all will depend on the amount of free time and available space (in terms of pure elective credits) she can squeeze in coupled with finding or arranging a schedule to include exploratory courses. Knowing how many credits are mandated within and outside of the major are critical.

I’d imagine a combo BM/MMEd path would have similar structure. How much “ed” is in the BM and how much within the Masters is a function of the program.

It’s really a function of the curriculum/degree requirements, and the depth, breadth and availability of additional courses. Some creative ways of finding time can be scheduling specific general courses in late afternoon or evening slots, or the one night a week course if these are available. Know the school’s policy on overload fees and see if maxing out a semester or two credit wise is possible. Summers, winter term can add flexibility, but also cost. AP credits can be helpful, but even 5’s may not count to fulfill or override specifc degree required coursework.

Both performance and ed are time and credit pursuits at the BM level. Most dual programs are designed to be a greater than four year pursuits. Son was a five year perf/ed candidate. There was music coursework he tried like the devil to take, but the constraints of scheduling made it virtually impossible to “do it all”.

Flexibility and thinking outside the box can help, but getting out of synch in a structured sequenced program can wreak havoc on subsequent semesters scheduling and tried to recoup to get back on track.

I don’t think it answers your question, but may give you some idea of the issues.

violindad · October 4, 2009, 10:03am

Dadofclard: “can a Teacher Certification year/year-and-a-half provide an equivalent preparation for a teaching career as a BM in MusEd?”

Generally not. Violadad mentions the many, many courses required in a BM in MusEd degree. While many of those are compulsory within a performance degree (e.g. music theory, music history, music literature, major instrument, possibly some keyboard proficiency), many are not. At our local universities, a post-bachelor’s degree in education is a two-year degree and music is not allowed as a major for this abbreviated education degree: with a semester during that two years spent student teaching and the other year and a half spend taking required education courses, there is no room whatsoever for courses within one’s major or minor teaching disciplines. Courses within one’s discipline must be completed prior to the degree. The required courses within the two-year degree include: two general methods courses in one’s major teaching discipline (music is not allowed here because a music teacher requires much much more than just two methods courses), one methods course in the minor teaching discipline, either child psych or adolescent psych, psych evaluation/assessment, educational testing/assessment, classroom management, educational history, educational administration/legal issues, group behaviour/social dynamics, general secondary methods, an elective in historical/sociological educational issues, a prep course for the internship, and two education electives.

At some schools it is possible to fill in one’s BM electives with courses that will be helpful or mandatory for teaching music. The university which produces about 95% of our local band teachers requires a five year programme for music education and music is the only teaching discipline for which 5 years is required: all other teaching disciplines require only 4 years. At the end of the 5 years students receive two bachelor’s degrees: a B. Mus. and a B. Ed… For example, Band teachers require: two semesters of brass methods, two semesters of woodwind methods, a semester of percussion methods, three semesters of conducting, a semester of band literature, a semester of secondary or elementary school music program; that’s a full year’s worth of courses that are usually not taken by performance majors unless as electives and only with special department permission.

As violadad mentions, it would be very difficult to fit all of the education requirements and all of the music education requirements into a post-bachelor’s program of a year or year and a half. It would be more possible if a student takes as many as possible of the music methods courses as electives within their bachelor’s program.

Bottom line: teaching music is not like teaching mathematics or English or science. The skill set and knowledge required for high school music teaching is very broad and is generally not fully covered in a performance degree.

violindad · October 4, 2009, 10:49am

A couple of qualifications on my previous post: every college/university will have different requirements for education degrees and states will also vary in their requirements.

As well, I focused on the worst-case scenario: the band teacher (although maybe that is only the 2nd worst scenario: the orchestra teacher should have all that a band teacher has plus a huge background in strings that really cannot be adequately covered in a semester’s string methods course).

Generally a choral teacher would either have fewer mandatory methods classes or would be able to fulfill more of these in the prior degree (e.g. language and vocal diction courses, vocal pedagogy are often taken by vocal performance majors in their first degree). Because choral conducting is quite different from band conducting, there may be one or two fewer conducting courses required for choral teachers (I am not saying that choral conducting is any easier: it is just less techniquey and less amenable to direct instruction).

I do not mean to intend that the background for teaching choral classes is any less rigorous than that for a band teacher: choral teachers usually have completed significant study in both voice and piano whereas many band teachers have studied only one instrument in depth (in addition to their keyboard requirements which are usually significantly lower than what is desirable for most choral teachers). However, these applied requirements (piano and voice) can both often be met in the first degree (or in many cases that I have observed, a vocal performance major will have studied piano intensively for years prior to attending college).

The minimal requirements for graduation may be somewhat different from what is optimally desired for a teacher. For example, some schools may have rather low keyboard proficiency requirements for choral teachers and a teacher who barely met these could be at a huge disadvantage in their instruction.

Now, if a person wants to be able to teach all the music in a school (concert band, choral, vocal jazz, orchestra, jazz band, world music, composition . . .), I’m sure there are post-bachelor’s programs that claim to give them the background to do so, and there probably are exceptional graduates of such programs that can do an excellent job of instructing such a diverse set of courses, but realistically concert band and vocal jazz have about as much in common as chemistry and English do.

violadad · October 4, 2009, 12:27pm

violindad fleshed out a bit more, and honestly I haven’t begun to compare and study the differences between various BM/MMEd degree combo paths offered at any number of institutions. A lot depends on how the curriculum is structured: is the BM a general music path, a performance type track, or an ed focused track designed to get a lot of the typical BM ed coursework covered? Is the Masters portion an extension of the BM (musically) or does it focus on the general ed coursework, the music specific instructional methodologies, and involve a supervised teaching experience (typically a semester)?

The differences between a BM performance focus and a BM ed focus boils down largely to 8 semesters of private instruction, mandatory main performance ensemble participation, and a broader range of specialized ensemble requirements, and typically a greater depth of theory in the performance curriculum; the ed curriculum usually shortens these performance, theory and sometimes private instruction requirements to allow the time and credit space to allow the music specific and general ed methods, practicum and discipline specific applied coursework including the offsite supervised student teaching semester. Without comparing specific degree requirements across different options (4 year BM in ed, five year ed combo BM/MM, or a general or ed specific BA music and a separate 2 year MM, or any other combination) it’s virtually impossible to define the “best” program for any particular student. So much is contingent on the end goal, as well as potentially the exploratory journey itself.

Our own experience is that while at the time, son’s path of a dual perf/ed BM path SEEMED the right idea, he did have the option of exploring both options very freely and fully, and was able to switch gears seamlessly. He may well have been in a more difficult spot if he had initially decided on a straight BM ed or a combo BM/MM ed path. In his case, he realized that teaching within a k-12 environment was not the path he wanted to take, at least at this point in his musical life.

Lots of thoughts, and no real answers.

My take would be trying to find the most flexible alternative that appears to mesh with the student’s (perceived) goals.

Linde · October 4, 2009, 1:12pm

Getting back to Dadofclard’s general question regarding exploring other careers in music – What advice can those with experience give to talented musicians (and their parents) who may not see performance as THE path but want to (need to???) immerse themselves in music? My son has seen himself going the performance route for years and is now, as a HS junior, questioning that objective. Yet, I am sure he is like many of your kids – he thinks music, he breathes music, music, music, music. So, where/how should he go about thinking of other ways to be a musician? Music business or technology, I suppose are possibilties but I am not sure that they are too far afield in term of pure music.

Another way to ask the question: My older son (not a musician) is now pursuing a traditional liberal arts education. While he started college with some idea(s) on what he’d like to study, he has taken courses in lots of areas and kind of found his place. As a junior in college, he’s now starting to think about what to do with his major (or despite his major!) after college. Is there a analogy in the music world – a place or way to let my musician son not commit as a freshman, but to explore different areas, and find his place, too?

violadad · October 4, 2009, 1:40pm

Linde, that path is often a BA in music within a liberal arts college or university that provides a typical “liberal arts” exploratory path. There are audition and non audition BA experiences, and some that will allow an audition based switch into a BM a year or two into the program.

(Added: It’s a little more difficult finding the flexibility within a fairly specialized and sequenced curriculum like a BM in music ed, but a BA in that discipline typically leaves a bit more room in cross interest academic or music discipline specific coursework, but again it’s program specific. Music ed in and of itself is an area often closed to non-majors or with limited coursework (typically only at the very basic intro level) as a minor, but these are so school specific that it takes a good deal of digging.)

The trick is finding the program that provides the flexibilty, peer level musically, and exploratory options academically.

Some find these within the CTCL schools, or the Ivys, others within any number of private or public schools.

Some of these threads may help:

Off the top of my head, it sounds like questions/discussions concerning -Allmusic-, SpiritManager, rudysmom, and probably any number of others… maybe binx (with d), stringkeymom, compmom, memake? (Cosmos experiences at UChicago appear to give her a great deal of flexibily musically.)

binx · October 4, 2009, 3:07pm

Linde - some random thoughts:

Summer music programs are vital to a HS student who is considering immersing himself in all music all the time. Conversely, summer programs in other disciplines are also a way to explore other interests.

Many BA programs begin freshmen year, just like BM programs. Because they are liberal arts based, it is more possible to switch into them from outside the music dept. We felt it would be easier for D to switch from BM to BA rather than vice versa, so she jumped right into the BM program, expecting to switch to the BA after two years (at which point she would have met most of the music requirements for the BA, and only have the liberal arts reqs left.) She has opted to stick with the BM all the way through, but is beginning to consider what lies ahead for her. She is a “do-gooder” - more interested in working in some back woods third world environment than on Wall Street. Sees herself in some sort of humanitarian role, or other international endeavor. “What can you do with a BM in violin and minors in German and Chinese?”

Well, we’re not sure. Teach violin in a Chinese orphanage? Work with symphonies in some capacity that allows her to interact with bewildered Asian guest artists or German conductors? Teach in a multicultural setting like Teach for America? D spent the summer working at a church camp, and playing in the “band.” I could even see her running a program like that some day.

She is still looking for ways to balance music with her other interests. Some day she may have to set her violin aside (it even hurts to type that), but I don’t regret her having these four years to give it all she’s got. We have had some deep discussions on how, regardless of where she heads from here, she needs to finish strong. Right NOW she is a violin major, and she can’t slack off just because she can’t think now what she’ll do with it in the future.

mezzomom · October 4, 2009, 5:46pm

Linde, to add to Binx’s random thoughts:

My daughter, now a college senior, started as a BA in music. She had the option of pursuing a BM in Vocal Performance at her school (she was offered that program after her audition), but opted for the BA for two reasons: she knew she could double major with a BA (but not BM at her school), and her summer experiences at Interlochen had convinced her that talent aside, she didn’t have the single-mindedness that other BM-hopefuls had. Within one year, and with the full blessings and support of the music department, she had designed an individualized BA in Global Music and Cultural Relations.

Fast forward to now, and she is working on grad school apps for Ph.D programs in cultural anthropology. For awhile, she was looking at both ethnomusicology and women’s studies programs but felt those might limit her research interests too much. If grad school doesn’t pan out, she will be looking for employment in areas related to the arts and/or disability issues.

Her bottom line is that she does not regret her focus on music at all, and if anything, feels it opened her eyes to different cultures through the medium of music. Although she’s likely to be heading in a different direction than “pure” music, she still finds wonder and beauty in music, and I can’t imagine that she’ll ever be without a song on her lips. Maybe that would have happened without her undergrad music…but I think the depth of her appreciation and the breadth of her exposure to world music has been increased exponentially and worth it all.

Allmusic · October 4, 2009, 6:06pm

Someone very wise once told my son that aside from boatloads of talent and charisma, those who really make it in music also need the drive of entrepreneurship. Nothing will fall in their laps, so these kids also need to have a great deal of confidence to go out and sell themselves, to cobble together a living by different gigs, teaching etc., studio work, etc. Even the most talented need to be able to think creatively, in out of the box ways that their particular talents can be utilized.

Many musicians will never have a typical “9-5” type life (and most wouldn’t want that anyway), but I do think that entrepreneurial spirit is an important component of some of the most successful musicians.

thumper1 · October 4, 2009, 6:41pm

And just more food for thought…true stories.

First a friend who was a music performance major in undergrad school. About her senior year, she decided she didn’t really want to be a performer as her main source of livelihood. She wanted to teach. She enrolled (at Hartt…just FYI Violadad) and it took her two years but she completed her teacher certification in CT and her masters.

Second, trumpet player we knew…got his undergrad degree in Music Ed. Taught for a couple of years. Then got his MM in Performance/Education and taught for a couple more years. Then pursued a DMA again…education/performance.

Third…dropped out of undergrad school in music, but reentered as an adult and got BM in Music Ed.

Fourth…professional singer who also taught at the college level. Got his CT certification through the alternative route to teaching (only for those with degrees other than in education…and with significant other experience. Where we are…typically more for areas of shortage and in this state music teachers is an area of shortage).

Linde · October 4, 2009, 9:13pm

Thanks for the wonderful stories! It sounds like we should look have at BA programs at schools with good music offerings and then see where things go.

BeezMom · October 4, 2009, 9:34pm

All - I agree with Linde - thanks for the stories. As I said when I started the thread - it’s been a long strange trip!
AllMusic - your post hit the nail on the head - She sat me down and said “Mom, I’m just not a risk taker.” One can have all the talent in the world, but if you need security, performance is not the way to go. 
To the parent who bemoaned his D’s High School - I’m sorry. I have to think the breadth of her studies this year have played into her decision. After taking a year off to do AP Theory, she’s back in Orchestra and is realizing that she really missed playing violin. And with all her other courses, she’s working with all 4 music teachers, plus the teachers that are directing the plays (both dramatic and musical). To their credit, these teachers are so supportive that they’ve become very real role models. 
And for that, I’m very grateful.

MaryTN · October 7, 2009, 3:59pm

S wants to major in Music Ed with vocal emphasis. What seemed to help him decide took a little time to get familiar with but ended up being helpful.

I chose a few schools he had mentioned and printed out the degree requirements for Vocal Performance, Music Ed/vocal, and Musical Theater at each school (or their closest equivalents).

The first time you look at the them… :eek: … it makes your brain swim compared to a typical liberal arts degree with a 30 hour major and general ed requirements. But after a while, patterns emerge. VP frequently requires one year in each of 3 languages, for instance.

Then I had him explain them all to Dad which also processes them through the brain differently.

He still says Music Ed so that’s what we’re going with for now.

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