<p>To say that a school "cuts for a reason" begs the issue. The real question is what the reason is. Is it that the student hasn't fulfilled their end of the "educational contract" by not demonstrating seriousness of purpose and dedication; is it that the student's grades in their studio/performance classes demonstrate that the student is not capable of learning and growing as a performer? Or is it that the school has a hidden, undisclosed agenda that subordinates the school's educational mission to other interests.</p>
<p>A school should clearly and unequivocally disclose up front if they have a cut policy and the basis on which a student can be cut. Even if a school does not "cut to a number", if the school in essence requires a student to go through either a de facto or de jure re-audition process to remain in a program, a student is entitled to know this before they plunk down 10's of thousands of dollars to attend.</p>
<p>It doesn't "beg the issue" of whether the school admits more students than it intends to keep, takes their money, then cuts them. With regard to that issue, CCM doesn't do it.</p>
<p>No one but the students involved know what their reason for being cut is. Evaluations are confidential. Do you have some basis for insinuating "a hidden, undisclosed agenda?"</p>
<p>CCM did "clearly and unequivocally disclose" at our student's audition what the cut policy is. A current student explained it. I assume this was done at all sessions.</p>
<p>I would be interested in knowing how many years CCM goes without cutting ANYONE.</p>
<p>mdt:</p>
<p>1) When they explain the "cut policy", what do they mention as the criteria that will be used? And what is the policy explanation?</p>
<p>2) What do you think the objective of having a cut policy might be? If a student is not failing, what harm is there in letting the student complete their education? So what if they don't make it as a performer. Can't one let the market decide? Is the school concerned about the level of talent in their well regarded showcase? If so, could they have a showcase that is just by audition?</p>
<p>NMR....good question. So, four kids were cut this year. Someone said one was cut last year. I don't have the exact number but I am aware that a few got cut two years ago.</p>
<p>The current student who spoke to my child's audition group in 2007 said two of four classes graduate complete. I assume he meant of the four classes during his tenure. I haven't verified that, and I have no other data.</p>
<p>soozievt:</p>
<p>(1) Freshmen are evaluated at the beginning of the year, at the end of the first quarter in December (the fall boards, which all of the kids who were cut failed), at the end of winter quarter (on classwork only, no performance), and at spring boards.</p>
<p>What specific standards are set? Do they receive a syllabus or checklist or scoresheet? I don't know, I'm only a parent. But they do receive a careful preliminary screening at the very beginning, are told what they should do and work on, and are evaluated face-to-face twice more before the final boards in May or June.</p>
<p>soozievt:</p>
<p>(2) I'm not part of CCM and cannot speak for them. It has been discussed on this board many times that there are valid reasons for a cut policy, and if it is adequately disclosed, a student needs to decide whether he or she wants to be part of it.</p>
<p>One reason is that an MT class becomes a team, a company, almost a family. If there is a lack of "seriousness of purpose and dedication," this can affect the harmony of the group. If there is a deficiency in performance, this can affect the quality of productions, at school and at the very important showcase.</p>
<p>Some may disagree about the value of these aspects. As long as there is disclosure, everyone can choose. Frankly, I personally would rather know my freshman year that I'm not going to make it, rather than pay for four years and then find out I'm left out of the showcase. Others, perhaps most others, feel otherwise. Then CCM is not for you.</p>
<p>I just think that people need to know that CCM doesn't cut to numbers. And I have a problem with allegations of a "a hidden, undisclosed agenda."</p>
<h1>1)</h1>
<p>So, I'm not clear on what is the "cut policy" as you said it was "explained" (but you only explained a procedure/timeline) and what is the criteria based on? It appears...but I am guessing.....to be talent/skill based.....and not their grades (a cut student had As and Bs in the BFA training classes)....and you said they are told what to work on....I imagine things related to their artistic skills, right? So, I am guessing that if artistic skills do not measure up or there is not enough growth, the student could be cut, right? And that is different from what typically happens in an educational setting where a student moves onto the next grade and eventually graduates unless they are skippping school or flunking out (or in the case of college, have a GPA below a certain level, etc.).</p>
<p>2) I agree that there is disclosure as to the fact that there are cuts. And I agree there is no set number decided ahead of time. I believe MichaelNKat wasn't just saying disclosure of the existence cut policy was necessary but that the "basis" of it be ALSO disclosed...that is, by what criteria would a student be cut. I also did not read an "allegation" of a hidden agenda but rather a question asking if there is one in an effort to understand the reason for having cuts. </p>
<p>I understand about the seriousness of purpose and dedication to the group and the cohesiveness. I don't quite get how one can have A's and B's in the training classes and then get cut but I do not know their grading rubric. One would think that if you can be cut for these reasons, that such criteria are also used in grading. I don't agree with the point that a deficiency in performance affects the qualify of productions, insofar as they could opt to not cast students who are not performing as well as other students. Nobody is guaranteed casting or parts. And if they feel the performance level is not up to speed, does it really matter in a showcase? Then the student simply won't get many offers. Another option if they only want to put out their best students (since CCM cares about reputation via their showcase to the industry), make the showcase by selection. But all can complete their education. If someone is not in the showcase, that is not so terrible. They still get their degree. Showcases are certainly a good first step at being seen by the industry but are not the end all and be all as the main mission should be to earn the education/training. My kid's main objective in going to her BFA program is not about the showcase. You mention that you prefer to find out as a freshmen if you are not going to make it. In my view, the school cannot truly say who will or won't make it. People who have been cut from programs have "made it" in the field. And people who have made it through programs have not done well upon graduation. There are no guarantees. But school is about obtaining an education and is not a guaranteed ticket to a job or a career. To me, that should be the mission. What happens after graduation is based on each individual (and some luck).</p>
<p>Again, as a parent, not as a representative of CCM:</p>
<p>(1) I believe that you are correct, "if artistic skills do not measure up or there is not enough growth, the student could be cut." (That's one of the four, according to my information.) Also, quoting MichaelNKat, if "the student hasn't fulfilled their end of the 'educational contract' by not demonstrating seriousness of purpose and dedication." (The other three, supposedly.)</p>
<p>Those are what I meant by "cut for a reason." I'm sorry for not being clear. That is my understanding of the criteria, as a parent of a student, but I do not speak for the school.</p>
<p>I agree, it is very different from a traditional academic setting, which I find the BFA to be in general.</p>
<p>How can a student who is getting A's and B's in their studio classes then be told that they are not up to snuff and get cut? That makes no sense to me. A student ostensibly wouldn't earn an A, which indicates superior achievement (way above average ... as average is a "C") if that student is seriously lacking in anything, be it talent, attendance, work ethic, etc. It's clear that CCM (and other schools) certainly are up front about the fact that they have cuts, but I doubt that most kids earning A's and B's feel in danger of being cut. THAT is the puzzling thing.</p>
<p>(2) They were told at auditions that CCM cuts for performance, or something like that. I took notes, not a transcript. We thought we knew what they meant, and it turns out we did. I think most people did also.</p>
<p>Quoting MichaelNKat:</p>
<p>"Is it that the student hasn't fulfilled their end of the "educational contract" by not demonstrating seriousness of purpose and dedication; is it that the student's grades in their studio/performance classes demonstrate that the student is not capable of learning and growing as a performer? Or is it that the school has a hidden, undisclosed agenda that subordinates the school's educational mission to other interests."</p>
<p>I'm sorry, this got my back up a little. I'm a little over-sensitive at times. You're right, this isn't an allegation. But with all respect, it does strike me as an insinuation.</p>
<p>My observation (just a parent, I keep repeating) is that grades aren't that important at CCM. Boards are what really count. This might (I purely speculate) relate back to the fact that CCM for a hundred years was an independent conservatory in Cincinnati. Two, in fact: the College of Music of Cincinnati and the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music; they merged in 1955, and then joined the University of Cincinnati in 1962. Universities have grades, so CCM has them, but they're not what count there, and everyone knows that. Freshmen are formally evaluated four times in the first year, face-to-face, on a pass-fail basis. That's is their method of evaluation, and it seems more than reasonable to me. They also give out A-B-C grades on report cards and transcripts, but does ANYONE care about those for a BFA?</p>
<p>I have direct knowledge of a student who got A's in every single conservatory class in the first year. But on the basis of the fall boards and other evaluations, he knew it was going to be a very tight thing getting past the cuts. He did, barely. Sound weird? Maybe so, but everyone understands that's how it works.</p>
<p>Wow, that just seems so topsy turvy to me. They don't care about the grades? I just don't understand how they can earn As in conservatory PERFORMANCE classes and still be kicked out. I mean you're not sitting around writing papers and listening to lectures. Acting and other performance classes by their nature mean that you perform in class so the professors KNOW their technique, since they have guided them along through the various scene assignments in class, or performance/technique within a dance sequence or song. If a student is struggling and not displaying the level of talent that in CCM's opinion is represented of their school than obviously that should reflect in grades, castability, etc. </p>
<p>I just don't think it makes any sense to place so much onto ONE or TWO jury performances. Everyone (even people with decades of professional work behind them) has a bad day. Not to mention the fact that juries are a stressful time for everyone which doesn't help the situation. </p>
<p>Sorry for my ranting, I just think its stupid to not take grades into consideration before kicking a student out of a program. If the student is that bad and should have been getting Cs and Ds, well than that should be on the professor, not the student.</p>
<p>The problem with taking a statement out of context is, well, that it's out of context. Sometimes you have to read what follows to understand the point being made, to wit:</p>
<p>"A school should clearly and unequivocally disclose up front if they have a cut policy and the basis on which a student can be cut. Even if a school does not "cut to a number", if the school in essence requires a student to go through either a de facto or de jure re-audition process to remain in a program, a student is entitled to know this before they plunk down 10's of thousands of dollars to attend."</p>
<p>And, by the way, the comment was not directed specifically to CCM which is why it was not posted on the thread concerning cuts at CCM which appears within a couple of threads from this one.</p>
<p>However, since CCM has been raised in relation to my comment, I do find the explanation that grades at CCM really don't matter because of the schools history as an independent conservatory that is now part of a university to be disingenuous and unavailing. There are plenty of highly regarded BFA programs with a similar history that do not have cuts. All that suggests as to CCM is that there are 2 different systems of evaluating students, one in the classroom/studio class and one at the boards and evals, which seems incongruous, since the classes are performance based. The fact that a student with "straight A's" is at risk of being cut raises even more questions about the criteria and interests being served by the cut system.</p>
<p>So my question is, at CCM are students told up front, before they decide to matriculate, that there are 2 different sets of criteria in play by which they will be judged and what the specific criteria are for each so that they understand how and why a student with superlative classroom/studio performance can be deemed unworthy of continuing in the program based on the evals and boards. Unless a school - any school, not just CCM - openly and candidly makes such disclosures, it is fair to conclude that the interests being served by the cut system are unrelated to the educational mission of the school and the best interests of a student who has paid 10's of thousands of dollars to get an education.</p>
<p>Tee hee ... Sounds like Michael is building a case. ;)</p>
<p>Seriously, though ... Is there any established law that covers this? I'm of the opinion that a professional training program should reserve the right to cut, but there should be a set of steps that must be followed before it's done and there should never be anything ambiguous about why. Basically, the student should see it coming from ten miles away. Written warning, probation, etc. for at least a grading period. Maybe something along the lines of what it takes to fire a union employee for cause in a non-right-to-work state. Nobody should ever be blindsided by it with no place to go the following year. These programs are too damned expensive and the financial effects on a middle class family or a student who is completely dependent on a maximum of four years of government financial aid could be catastrophic.</p>
<p>Now, as for a true, old-school numbers-based cut like the one at DePaul ... There really oughtta be a law ... Someone pointed out a couple of years ago that even private universities get federal funding. Is there any way to get that yanked from the schools that employ such a system until they change their ways?</p>
<p>Fish, I've been told that people know when I'm entering a room because the theme from Jaws starts to play. :)</p>
<p>I agree that a professional training program should have the right to throw someone out based on clearly defined AND measurable, articulable criteria that are disclosed in advance, with notice to a student that they are at risk and an opportunity to remediate. Kind of like "just cause" and "progressive discipline" concepts in a union collective bargaining agreement that you allude to (which, by the way, apply even in a right to work state since they are part of the contractual relationship - it's the union security clause that's not enforceable because of a specific provision of the National Labor Relations Act). </p>
<p>However, there's a world of difference between knocking someone out because they are not meeting certain performance based GPA standards, are cutting class, don't reflect the expected work ethic etc and canning a student because it is concluded that they don't have the desired "professional potential" or some other such nonsense.</p>
<p>As to the law, while I haven't researched it, it would seem to me that under appropriate circumstances various consumer protection laws or the concepts underpinning them could apply as could certain contract law concepts. Equitable arguments could also be made. But wouldn't it be easier for schools to just be honest and candid up front by giving full and complete disclosure of whether they have a cut system and the specific basis on which a student could be cut?</p>
<p>It was our understanding from the start that juries ARE the performance grade. They are the final exam of the semester. DD is not MT but VP and the juries system is understood. Fail 2 juries and continuing as a performance major would be an issue no matter what your grades were on your other classes. . That is why juries are so stressful. Actually knew of a professor at one of the universities who was dismissed because their students were always failing juries. </p>
<p>An advantage of being at a university based program instead of conservatory, is that there is something else to do if you are no longer a performance major. It would be something to check if you are starting the process of selecting a school. What happens if you fail juries or boards - are you just out of the program or out of the school completely?</p>
<p>Singersmom07, are you talking about CCM or another school. If the former, then there is some ambiguity. Earlier posts talked about getting grades in the performance classes as a separate process from the juries. And that's where the questions arose of how you can receive excellent grades in a performance class based on your ongoing work but then fail your jury or get knocked out because you failed your jury.</p>
<p>But let's assume the jury is the final for the class as you've suggested. That's not unusual. My daughter, as a MT freshman, had a vocal performance/MT performance jury at the end of each semester and also acting evals. They were her finals for those classes. (Her dance final each semester was a student choreographed dance performance.) There's a difference though between a jury which results in a grade on the spectrum of grading and one which is tantamount to a pass/fail re-audition. Is there progressive scoring in a jury and if so, what are the criteria. Where is the demarcation in the progressive scoring between passing and failing? There is also a difference between the jury being the sole determiner of the grade and simply being a heavily weighted "final" which is considered in conjunction with an entire semesters worth of work in the class.</p>
<p>No, not referring to CCM. Just an observation. Since there are several ways for schools to treat juries and boards it is important for those starting on the process to ask the questions and understand completely what each school means and what happens if you do not pass.</p>