Finalizing list of schools for student interested in Physics

College Search & Selection
21

South Dakota School of Mines & Technology has a substantive program in Physics. The Department of Physics’ research is intertwined with the nearby Sanford Underground Lab, where research in dark matter as well as astrophysics is conducted. All of the science and the engineering departments at SDSM&T are tough and have a strong reputation among professionals (including employers) and people in the know.

Students at SDSM&T work very hard, but it’s a very comfortable campus socially and very friendly. A very large segment of the undergraduates are not from South Dakota. Finally, the school is a tuition bargain.

22

It has been speculated that Bill Wootters (at Williams) may be shortlisted for a Nobel at some point for his pionering work in quantum information, but it’s beyond my paygrade to tell you how likely that is (or even what “quantum information” means). I did take a class with him, though, and he’s a great teaching prof and really good dude.

23

Appreciate all the responses so far – hoping to get some more!

Again, things that would help us distinguish (positively or negatively) some of these schools would be very helpful. For example, maybe something about their focus/depth in physics/science/math, research opportunities, or the location/setting of the schools we haven’t visited. I’ll add that my son thought Grinnell (the town) was too small/isolated, and Lawrence (the campus) was too compact (but they’re still on the list). How about the LA-area schools (Pomona, Mudd, Occidental), are they too urban, or are they somewhat separate from the cities around them?

Here’s another topic that hasn’t been discussed – it might be opening a can of worms to bring it up, but we probably need to think about it more at some point. That’s engineering. I’m not talking about engineering as a major, rather something to be exposed to/have access to. As yet, my son hasn’t indicated a need or interest in engineering, he’s fine with the more pure science of physics (and there’s also applied physics). But how important is it for people majoring in physics to have access to engineering? Most of the schools on our list do not have engineering, so if this becomes more important, we may need to rethink things a bit. (Of course, many of these schools are strong in physics, which suggests that the need for engineering is not so important.) My son will be taking an engineering-related course at his school this fall, which should help clarify some things.

24

If there are ways to sample engineering (e.g. Project Lead The Way or FIRST robotics), then he can try those to see if he is interested in engineering, which is the application of science (usually mainly physics) to design problems.

A physics student does not necessarily need access to engineering unless s/he is interested in the subject. The core physics major curriculum for pre-PhD students is well defined* and does not require any engineering. Now, if he is interested in engineering, or engineering physics, or applied physics, then engineering offerings may be of interest.

*Upper division physics major courses are typically:

  • Intermediate/advanced mechanics.
  • Electromagnetism (often two semesters).
  • Quantum mechanics (often two semesters).
  • Statistical and thermal physics (often the least reliably offered course at small departments, so its absence may be an indicator of a department that is too small).
  • Intermediate/advanced lab.
  • Recommended: upper division math courses like real analysis, complex analysis, abstract algebra, etc…
25

The Claremont Colleges (which include Mudd and Pomona ) are not urban. They are in a suburb and the area around them is a neighborhood filled with trees and beautiful homes. There is a small downtown within walking distance that is a great place to eat, shop and people watch.

The core curriculum at Mudd requires students to take classes in all the STEM disciplines including engineering. They want their students to have a broad knowledge of all the areas.

26

When reading about the greats in physics, it’s rare to read about engineering training of any type. For example, I can’t recall Feynman – who wrote at length in his autobiography about his undergraduate experiences at MIT – mentioning any engineering courses. (Though there’s no doubt he understood the principles of engineering nonetheless.) Physics, chemistry and math (as well as astrophysics) appear to be tightly linked, however. (Though even among these fields, the approach to a topic is often guided by the core discipline of the scientist. For instance, there’s a recognized sense of “physicists’ math” and “mathematicians’ math.”

Regarding settings of colleges, commonly overlooked are the differences among various types of rural environments. Rural farmland (e.g., Iowa) provides a very different – and, for some students, more limiting – environment than rural wild (e.g., the Adirondacks).

27

@Mom2aphysicsgeek - What you have heard about reference letters seems strange and i suspect that it is unique to that department. Having written many letters of reference over the years, I don’t think I have ever done something like that. I do sometimes tailor my letters to whether I think the student could be successful at the specific school.

@csdad2 - You have a good list of schools and a lot of posters have chimed in about more options. The best advice I can give, having had to send students our from our physics program at Illinois Tech, as well as recruiting graduate students to our PhD program, is that your son needs to find a program that offers all the upper division courses that @ucbalumnus listed on a yearly basis. This is the best preparation for a graduate program in physics. Students from smaller schools where these courses are offered every two years, spottily or only one semester instead of a full year, MAY not provide the kind of preparation that will lead to success in graduate school. I say MAY, because there are plenty of great LACs which send a lot of successful students to PhD programs in physics. It is simply something that needs to be considered and taken into account when making a decision.

Another thing to consider is whether the school has a PhD program in physics. This can be a plus when doing research and when looking for elective courses to take in the final year. The presence of PhD students means that there are opportunities to get involved in research alongside PhD students on funded projects. This gives the student an opportunity to see what it is like to get into a graduate program and to get a good, personal reference from a faculty member. The presence of a graduate program offers the student an opportunity to take graduate courses and be more prepared for what he/she will face in a graduate program.

Apart from these factors, the rest is really a question of whether your son likes the school and the department. Whether it is big or small, in a city or not, does not really affect the physics curriculum which is pretty standard all over the country.

28

@xraymancs That very well might be the case. They were students in a tippy top dept applying to equally top grad depts. From what I understood, they said their dept would not recommend multiple students for the same grad program.

29

If the goal is a PhD, pay strong attention to the undergrad schools with a high per-capita rate of future PhD’s in the chosen discipline.

30

Your kid sounds a lot like mine, only academically a notch stronger. There’s a lot of overlap between your list and ours as well, and based on our experience I’d say (although I’m normally very cautious in this regard) that you can dial back the safeties. (Though step up expressed interest in your matches – I saw a lot of high stats kids rejected from Case and U Rochester.)

Also, has he considered Rice? I know it’s out of your geographic area, but sounds otherwise like a potentially great fit.

Here’s how I’d pare the list…

Reach: Amherst, Brown, Harvey Mudd, Pomona, Stanford, Swarthmore, U Chicago*, Williams
(Keep what appeals most, bearing in mind that Williams and possibly Amherst may be a bit preppy/sporty, and Mudd, Swat & Chicago pretty high on the intensity scale). Maybe add Rice.

High match: Bates, Carleton, Grinnell, Hamilton, Haverford, Middlebury, Tufts, Vassar, Wash U, Wesleyan
(I’d keep Carleton, Grinnell, Haverford & Wesleyan for sure unless you see show-stoppers of your own. Take a look at frat life at Wash U. Not sure about Tufts. My sense is that Bates, Hamilton, Middlebury and Vassar are more humanities than sciences, but I’m sure someone can second guess that. Bates is probably more match than high match.)

Match: Case Western, Oberlin, Rochester
(All great choices. I might bump Oberlin up to the high match category and ask around about music opportunities for non-conservatory kids.)

Low match: Dickinson, Earlham, Kalamazoo, Lawrence, Lewis and Clark, Occidental, Puget Sound, Skidmore, Willamette, Wooster, UIUC
(Most of these are probably safeties. I’d keep Kalamazoo, Lawrence and UIUC. Don’t know much about the others – other than that they’re generally well-regarded and generally offer good merit. We did visit Wooster, which we liked very much but which didn’t seem to have a very robust Physics department – though they’re big on mentored undergraduate research – and Skidmore, which was lovely but seemed more about the arts and humanities than the sciences.)

31

“Hamilton . . . [is] more humanties than sciences” (#29)

Most popular majors (current USNWR)

Biology/Biological Sciences: 6%
Economics: 9%
International Relations and Affairs: 6%
Mathematics: 6%
Psychology: 7%

3 social sciences, 2 STEM, 0 humanities

For further perspective, Hamilton’s percentage of math majors is more than 5X the national average.

32

Add to that Middlebury being the first school with an Environmental Science program and Bares being known for the strength of its Chem department.

33

OP, you asked about research at various schools. Mudd has excellent research opportunities. My kid has researched there every summer (CS for two years, now physics this summer because she switched majors). She researched during the school year junior year, and will next year as well. She might have been able to start during the year sophomore year, but they are still finishing up core that year, so she didn’t attempt it.

There are no grad students, and all profs research, so the profs have an interest in getting the students up to speed and productive. My kid works in a lab that is doing a project with the Los Alamos National Laboratory right now. Mudd has some equipment that few colleges have, and that is one reason they are included on this project. She is now very experienced with that equipment and the associated software.

She has attended conferences a couple times a year since sophomore year, and has presented. She was listed as first author in something submitted for a conference recently, and their lab just got some results on something that was unexpected and exciting – she will be doing her senior research project on it, and possibly focusing on it in grad school. Her biggest challenge is that there are so many interesting opportunities – deciding which one to focus on was hard.

The profs are also very focused on helping the students prepare for grad school. Even students who don’t have top grades can get a lot of support if they prove to their profs that they deserve it in other ways.

34

Cut most of them, then add some back if you’re shut out of preferred schools in the early rounds (EA/ED).
Of course, you need to pay attention to deadlines for this strategy to work (but most of your low matches probably do have RD application deadlines beyond the EA/ED notification dates).

You also ought to be able to cut ~half of your reach and high match schools.
For what you seem to want, I’d be inclined to cut Amherst, Bates, Hamilton, Middlebury, Tufts, Vassar, WUSTL, and Stanford.

35

But also check if any of them have earlier deadlines for desirable scholarships.

36

Yes, also early deadlines for interviews (e.g. Rice, even if you don’t apply there, but some schools prioritize interviews for earlier applicants).

37

All colleges are at least matches for a 36 ACT all-state violist. That’s definitely a hook.

The biggest drawback to Ohio Tutorial Honors College is that if he doesn’t like it, none of the credits transfer anywhere.

38

Thanks again for the responses. We’ve cut the list some more – with our cuts pretty closely matching some of the suggestions, which is reassuring.

And we definitely do plan to apply to a number of schools early, adjusting things accordingly as we hear back. So in that sense, this is really an “initial finalization” of the list :-). And we’re collecting information on the schools’ various application deadlines (as well as lots of other information).

One question that brings up: As we receive the decisions for the early applications (well, the acceptances), when will we get the financial aid/scholarship information? Because without that, it will be hard to make definite decisions about which schools to drop. The best I’ve been able to gather is that schools vary on when they send that out, some include it at the same time, others later. And I suppose this could vary for schools that meet need. Do they typically let you know the aid package at the same time?

Another topic: Since we may not be able to visit some of these schools, especially the ones on/near the coasts, I’ve suggested to my son that he look into some of the fly-in/visit programs. I know these are typically intended for lower-income/under-represented kids, but I’ve gotten the impression that it may still be worthwhile to apply. Is that correct? Will it matter if he applies to a number of these programs? For instance, it looks like both Pomona and Harvey Mudd have visit programs; with them being together in a consortium, will it matter if he applies to both of them?

39

If you mean, is it allowed? Yes. If you mean will one school know he applied to the other’s program? No, they wouldn’t.

40

Yeah, guess I wasn’t clear what I meant. That’s partly because I thought there might be some implications I wasn’t aware of, so I was appealing to The Knowledge and Wisdom of CC™. But otherwise I was thinking of things like would he be perceived as greedy or selfish, or might it affect his chances for getting accepted or getting financial aid.

It just seems like this is something schools are being very generous about, and I don’t want him/us to be seen as taking unfair advantage of.