<p>Well, whether it sounds elitist or not, there is quite a bit of truth in what lookingforward said and not only for those tippy-top students but for a fair number of students w/just above average stats. Please note the poster specifically said they were not talking about the state flagships or top state schools but the 3rd and 4th tier schools. I have seen this firsthand, sadly in my own daughters case. My daughter graduated from a college prep school with a solid mid B average, SATs in the mid 500s all 3 sections, ACT score of 26, so certainly not a top CC student. That said, in high school she was surrounded by students who constantly pushed themselves to excel, as a result, she also pushed herself (her talents were never academic, the fact that her academic best was not at the level of the majority of her classmates is besides the point, the point is she pushed herself to do her personal best, because she was surrounded by classmates who also did the same).</p>
<p>Due to a family crisis her senior year and the fact that she just wasnt ready to head really far from home, she started at a private 2-year undergraduate college (the school intends for all its students to graduate with their associates and transfer to a 4-year school and they do fairly well) where she made the honor roll every semester, joined the junior college honor society, served as president of a club, chief editor of the literary magazine, and received recognition in all areas of the CAAP test and in general performed at the same level she did in high school. (Not to brag, but to set the back-story)This was certainly not true of all the students there, she was shocked by the number of students in her college algebra class who met the SAT/ACT test requirement and yet could not change a fraction into a mixed number (this was a child who was dragged kicking and screaming through 4 years of math and who swore she couldnt do math), the teacher administered her own test that you had to pass to stay in and even among those who could pass, about half failed, mostly because they just didnt come to class and do the work, which she couldnt believe at the time. She was also appalled at the lack of respect toward the teachers by some of the students, which was something that was not tolerated at her school. Yes, she didnt care for some of her teachers, both there and in high school, but she still respected their position. So she graduates with honors and</p>
<p>Against my misgivings, she transferred to a 3rd tier state school. Yes there was a boy involved, yes; I still berate myself on a near daily basis for agreeing to this. The boy wasnt there, was at a top private school close, she didnt care for the big state school in the same town and wouldnt consider the religious private school in that town, but didnt want to be too far away. Her state school has a reasonable reputation in her field and in her sub-specialty, a few instructors who actually worked in the field (most of which are not longer there) so I agreed. Shes in the honors program, has done one research project which received an award in the research symposium, and still has a very good GPA, but the change in her attitude, efforts and expectations is undeniable. The schools mid ACT range runs 18-23 and it has a graduation rate of just barely over 50%. There are minimum requirements to enter her field, which she met with a THEA test she took spring of her sophomore year in high school, yet she had classmates in her junior year in college who still hadnt meet the requirements in one area or another. Shes enrolled in one honors class this semester in which she has constantly complained about the work load, which while heavy is no more than she was expected to do in high school. She knows she can do a bare minimum of work to score the A and thats what she does. The quality of her work has declined as well. She showed me a research paper she had written for one class (the only research paper for the whole semester). Shes not copying and pasting, she is still actually doing the research and writing the paper, but apart from a very basic works cited page, no documentation, no formatting, done in outline form (as requested by the teacher, answer these questions in this order), a short, no more than one page summary of how you will personally use this information and that is what is considered a research paper. She tells me she has not had a single class where anything more than that has been required. She literally did the paper in a few hours the night before it was due and received an 87, a grade with which she is satisfied. The documentation issue alone would have given her a failing grade in high school. </p>
<p>I am aware that many public high schools in our state do not teach students how to research, document and write a paper anymore. At her two year college, in her freshman year she was assigned a research paper, which she wrote giving it her best effort. There was a young man in her class who turned in a copy and pasted paper. Because this college sees their role as preparing those students who arent quite ready for a 4 year school, he was allowed to redo the paper and the professor asked my daughter to help him. She called me later that night and told me the young man told her he had never written a research paper in his whole high school career, she had to walk him through step by step. They didnt have a lot of time, so in her eyes it wasnt a great paper, but at least it was done right (A question for another post, how in heck does a kid get through high school never writing a research paper?)</p>
<p>But now, shes perfectly content to perform to the lowest common denominator, and sadly when I go down for various events, several of her professors comment on how much they enjoy having her in their classes, shes a breath of fresh air, great writing skills and Im thinking, Heavens, what kind of students do they normally have in their classes? </p>
<p>Yes, Im well aware that some of this is a character issue, and obviously the child I thought I had is not the one I do have, and thats my failing, but some of it is being surrounded by a whole campus of students who are not capable of anything more, or have no interest in striving for anything more or dont see a reason to strive for more. So folks can post on this board all they want about how you can get a great education at a state school, how its not important to go to a school where you are surrounded by other students like yourself, or even a little above so that you have that challenge to push yourself, and yes thats true for possibly a very small minority, but this school has thousands of students and it does not hold true for the vast majority of them. As my mother used to say; when you mix cream and water, you dont get stronger water, you get weaker cream. </p>
<p>So is a 3rd or 4th tier school better than nothing? Possibly yes, if thats the only choice you have and youre interested in attempting to strive for me, but the vast majority of these students would have been better served by some vocational training and a job than by racking up student loans, staying there 5 or 6 years and then still no diploma, or worse getting the diploma, going out into the real world and finding you are no more prepared than if you had gone straight to work. The college experience in and of itself at one of the lower tier schools, is not worth anywhere near the cost and to pretend otherwise is doing everyone a big disservice.</p>