<p>Sure Family A can pay for it more easily. They have all sorts of disposable income being spent on luxuries that could easily be redirected to college.</p>
<p>Maintaining a country club membership for the “contacts” is, yes, a luxury. In the real world that 85 percent of Americans live in, it’s a not-even-dreamed-of luxury.</p>
<p>Billy’s point is to acknowledge we are tossing around huge numbers, while many truly suffer. It’s a valid point. If you want to call it grounded in a past era of idealism, go ahead. That would belie a selfish attitude that some say characterizes our present era. I believe folks should have acknowledged his point, rather than label it a strawman, so that we could move on. I also believe his point should have made a few feel a bit, even a teeny bit, guilty about griping. </p>
<p>It IS possible to state that the big earner who spends big could have as little left over as the fellow earning 1/3 or less. Sure. But, in between, the amount of spending is hugely different. 300-290 = 10. 80-70=10.</p>
<p>To add muscle to your positions, you really should examine the expenses on a level playing field. Apples to apples. Had you compared equal expenses needed to survive, per govt studies, you might have had a very potent argument. Not all would agree, but it might have informed a few of us of a reality we weren’t aware of.</p>
<p>Take that original NYT link from SAY, the chart breaking out the expenses a 250k income suffers. Subtract same expenses from a 100k income. First just do that. Don’t apply any proportionate discounts to college loan payments, utilities, food, medical, etc, because they don’t happen. Then look at that chart and see what you could eliminate so the 100k family does not end up in the hole. That’s what most of them do, every month. </p>
<p>It will reveal a staggering excess in the 250k’s charted expenses.<br>
Think like a CPA.</p>
<p>So here is the jobs data for undergrad degrees. Look at those salaries and it’s obvious that the cost of the degrees far exceeds the value of the jobs. Does it make sense for a degree to cost 240k or even 150k at the publics and then lead to a 35-40k job?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/what-different-college-degrees-are-worth-in-two-charts/2011/05/19/AF8R0o7G_blog.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/what-different-college-degrees-are-worth-in-two-charts/2011/05/19/AF8R0o7G_blog.html</a></p>
<p>Interesting. I’m looking at the Math/CS median of $34k, and that’s considerably less than half the median from some of the schools that I’m currently interested in, and far less than the stronger students would receive. These charts are averaging over all degrees from all schools, and all jobs in the field. That’s a lot of apples, oranges and meat products mixed in together (everyone who programs a computer seems to think they’re doing “CS”). </p>
<p>SAY, I agree with your larger point, questioning the value of these college degrees in general. No question about it. But some degrees from some schools can be worth far more than others. And contrary to CC mythology, there is most definitely a substantial difference among schools, even for the same nominal field of study - because in fact, it’s not actually the same course of study at all, and knowledgeable employers are very aware of the differences.</p>
<p>Mister K that is certainly true and shows just how corrupt the education system has become since the top ten cost the same as the 70th ranked private school. The entire system has been distorted by the intrusion of gov’t money/loans and the FA system which has almost every student paying a different price. Unless this money is removed the costs will never be brought under control. Everyone except the poor should be paying the same price. It just doesn’t make sense to take on 125-150k in debt to a job paying 40k.</p>
<p>
Yes, that’s one of the first things to learn about colleges: They’re not all alike! Policies and cultures differ widely.</p>
<p>vonlost the issue here is earning power. The truth is that armed only with a college degree most students even from top ten schools are not prepared to compete for high paying jobs. Usually that will take a professional degree so for the most part the udergraduate degree is merely used as a entrance exam and therefore is wildly overpriced.</p>
<p>Yes indeed, earning power differs too, especially between high and low levels of eliteness, and also between curricula.</p>
<p>Things are so bad that Sen Boxer no less is calling out the complete dishonesty of the law schools. The same can be said at virtually every level of post HS education. Parents and students are paying huge sums of money or taking on huge debts to basically hang out with other smart kids but in reality the education received is not remotely worth the cost for most students.</p>
<p>[Official</a> Website of U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer: Press Releases - Boxer Calls on American Bar Association to Ensure Accurate and Transparent Data Reporting by Law Schools](<a href=“http://boxer.senate.gov/en/press/releases/033111b.cfm]Official”>http://boxer.senate.gov/en/press/releases/033111b.cfm)</p>
<p>Lookingforward, of course, the person who makes more money has more money. That is as obvious as can be. However, a person making more money will have that much more in excess as someone making less ONLY if s/he spends exactly like that person. Even then, the tax bite will more right off the top, so we’ll have to start with the net amount of money.</p>
<p>When you make more money, you do have more obligations. If you don’t have the money, you let grandma go toothless or get her the cheapie dentures. If you have the money, it is kind of the right thing to do to pay for some much more expensive better fitting teeth for her. A concrete example of where thousands of dollars went from my account last year.</p>
<p>When you don’t have the money, things don’t get repaired at your house, and you wing it with the repairs you do have to do. When you do, the responsible thing to do is to fix the danged stuff because it can mean more serious trouble later and get someone reputable and knows what he is doing to do so. </p>
<p>When you don’t have the money, you say a prayer as you turn on the car in the morning and just hope it starts, and when it doesn’t, get the neighbor kid who is good with cars work on it. When you do, you are expected to have a reliable, safe car. For some jobs, it had better be a nice looking, low mileage car. That costs money. You use a reputable insurance company, not just the one with the lowest rates. If you are skimping in this area, no one is going to admire you.</p>
<p>When you have money, you are expected to have a certain amount in savings for things (not just college), No one blames someone low income for not having 3 months rent in the bank just in case. Not the case if you make 6 figures. You are expected to do certain responsible things in your life.</p>
<p>School district not so good? Neighborhood getting a bit iffy? If you don’t have the money you are stuck, and you and your family make do. If you make the money, I think there is an obligation to find someplace better for the family. That is a priority all families are expected to make. And yes, it costs. </p>
<p>When we moved here from a a midwest city with a reasonably low cost of living a few years ago, we were faced with NYC suburb prices that were at its peak. DH’s company basically gave him the choice of the move or the door, and though we loved where we lived, the pickings were slim there for his type of work and DH"s income was the only money source for us. He was given a hefty raise and relocation money for the move, but let me tell you, we had less money at the end of each month than we did before the move. We had a house that was just a few years from pay off status, and a cost of living that was pretty low. Not the case here. When you move from some little city to NYC area, and you don’t know anyone, you can’t really take the chance of moving into the little known pockets where there are some values. You pay full price on the table, and we got reamed. We also bought too much which was our own fault, but looking at it through hindsight, really we were going to get hosed doing the right thing. You do live in your house, the whole family does, and it should provide safe haven and be a sanctuary for all in the family. So, yes, you do put a bulk of your money in it. You commute each day from work and if you want more time with the family and more useful time at work and time is a premium, you don’t live over an hour away from work. There is that quality of life thing and the more you earn, you do feed that priority.</p>
<p>As I’ve consistently said, I’m not asking for sympathy or money for college for those who are making what is considered a good income. But I am trying to raise the awareness of those who make such statements that you can just live like someone who is making a lot less and have all that money left over. Doesn’t work that way.</p>
<p>Also, I get the same feeling I get about the “starving kids in poverty stricken areas” that gets bandied when one won’t clean the plate. Just because there are those who are starving doesn’t mean you have to eat what is given to you and you can’t complain about the food. Doesn’t work that way.</p>
<p>Cpt–and of course it goes without the saying that the family in which grandma can chew her food, and the mortgage gets paid off, and the roof is fixed, and you don’t lose your job because the car didn’t start, is infinitely better off. I know you know that.</p>
<p>The fact that the lower income person isnt “blamed” for these things doesn’t really make them easy to bear. but I know you know that too.</p>
<p>But even so, I don’t agree with some of your givens. Some people *do *stick with the sketchy school district, and the iffy neighborhood, even though they have a choice. I do admit to being a little surprised that by doing those things, I was skimping on obligations, or raising eyebrows. I thought I was just being fiscally prudent, as well as community-oriented.</p>
<p>Whoa!<br>
This thread has its breathtaking moments.
Cpt- did you explain all that to your kids, when they got interested in expensive colleges? </p>
<p>Of course it costs more to maintain the nice home in the safe neighborhood in a great school district. Or, pay for unanticipated dental or medical costs. My complaint is about the attitude that the higher income folks are somehow getting ripped off by college costs. As if they were more helpless than the next guy. </p>
<p>I understand that your move seemed beyond your control and that there were adjustments. To ensure your family’s stability, you had to go through an unprojected shift. I would think that sort of situation would help one understand the challenges others face, when they commute to keep their jobs, delay repairing the roof or can’t help grandma. From the examples in your paragraphs, I would think one would understand that many families caught in the middle DO make these hard decisions.</p>
<p>You realize, I hope, that people who earn less care just as much about their families as those who earn more.</p>
<p>Yep, I did, Lookingforward. My kids do have a cap for what we can pay,and it really is more than we can comfortably pay, given past commitments. Or should be paying, given the same</p>
<p>And,again yes, Garland,we should have moved into some areas with less highly ranked school district, as we are paying a premium is property tax AND we ended up putting our kids is private school as well. We tried to duplicate our past environment as near as possible since no one really wanted to make this move. Also picking a neighborhood while living 10 hours a way and looking at second hand info is different from moving while knowing the area. Had to go by conventional wisdom and take the safest route because we have 5 kids and for us their school during k-12 years was important to us. Now, I would be amenable to a number of less highly ranked school districts here, and areas that are hidden gems. I don’t know exactly where you live, don’t know if it would make the list, but I certainly would not rely as much on rankings and recs from realtors and relocation people, now that I have been here and know the areas first hand. But coming from the Midwest, a small city, small community, to NYC area was intimidating to us and we bought ourselves a cushion which, yes, we could afford to do at the time. Had there been less money that we could have paid, our options would have been more limited. </p>
<p>And I’ve been there with having to make these hard decisions. DH’s job and income dried up a few years after the move and we had to cut down to the bone, and would have scraping that as well had things not changed. Nearly lost the house–some parts of it we did lose as we could not do some repairs and stuff necessary. And had to let some things that I would certainly have addressed be since I did not have the money. </p>
<p>Now that we have sufficient income to meet the expenses of the obligations we made when we first moved here, we have choices on other places to put our money. And so grandma gets her teeth. A few years ago she would not. We were able to revamp the bathroom for her to use more safely. A few years ago, we could not. </p>
<p>I have never advocated more aid and resources to higher income college families, quite the opposite, but I am addressing the issue of how it isn’t so simple to be able to afford college costs even at a higher income. It is not so simple as a $200K family has $100k more free cash that the one who makes half their income. College is not the be all to end all, so other obligations morally should take precedence. For those who truly feel that a private, away college is of tantamount importance, their budgets and savings should reflect that. In that case, in my family, grandma wouldn’t have teeth and we would have buckets in our attic to catch the rain (lot of them these days). Perhaps, I would be your neighbor, Garland, though in my case I really wanted my kids in schools before college that addressed a number of their educational needs and would give them more than what most public schools do. So I had to pay for that want. I would have loved to have continued to be able to have them go where ever they wanted for college, but given our other priorities, the money doesn’t cover it. </p>
<p>We are all getting ripped off by some of these high college costs. The way they have spiraled out of range in the last 30 or so years is above and beyond any COLA indices. And some of the colleges are beginning to pay the consequences of this. A few years ago, no one was getting raises, but colleges across the spectrum raised their prices 3-5%, never mind we were in a deep recession, no, a depression by some counts. I believe I posted on this thread how I feel about this. </p>
<p>I am not making any aspersions about people who earn less caring about their families less than those who make more. I care just as much about my family when making less than when making more. I care so much about them that I address their needs when the more comes rolling in rather than putting it towards college costs for those heading off that way.</p>
<p>cpt I agree with you. The thing that many on this thread seem to keep ignoring is the fact that the price of college tuition can not be defended based on the value of the undergraduate degree. The reason the upper income people are being most effected is because they are the only ones paying the full bill. The issue isn’t about low income families that everyone agrees should get help but the complete nonsense of giving families at the 90th or 94th percentile a significant discount and then charging slightly better off but hardly rich families in the 96th percentile the full rate. The FA system and gov’t loans have completely corrupted the system and is the primary reason that tuition keeps going up 3-6% every year. Where is this going to end? Very soon everyone but the those at the 98-99th percentile will require major aid. The current college system is broken and needs a radical overhaul.</p>
<p>My guess is there won’t be a radical overhaul until schools are unable to fill their incoming classes.</p>
<p>Maybe but long before that there will be a financial crisis for the upper middle class. The full cost of college/professional school now exceeds all the federal and state taxes they have paid if they have more than one child. Tuition has become another huge progressive tax.</p>
<p>Complete nonsense.</p>
<p>[News:</a> Discounting the Bottom Line - Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/05/23/nacubo_survey_finds_increased_tuition_discounting_led_to_financial_problems_during_the_recession]News:”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/05/23/nacubo_survey_finds_increased_tuition_discounting_led_to_financial_problems_during_the_recession)</p>
<p>I’ve been wrong for the last 15 years about this so maybe I’m still wrong. But when families at my income and asset level say they won’t pay $55K+, won’t take out the loans to pay it because it just doesn’t make the family priorities with other things as I listed as examples coming before 4 years at a such a school for each kid, there is going to be a shortage of families to pay full freight. For schools like HPY, the ceiling is so high in terms of those willing to pay those amounts that they won’t be affected, but for many other schools, there will come a time and a point when they won’t get enough full pays to make it work. It’s happening all ready at some schools, some pretty nice schools. If it keeps up, more schools will be forced to discount via “merit” awards to the full pays.</p>
<p>No that is not what’s happening. Instead the upper middle class are being forced to choose their state school instead of bankrupting themselves. So the current system is shutting out the people making 180-250k who are the actual alums of the elite schools and have followed the rules. Does this policy make sense?</p>
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<p>Why do you think this was complete nonsense? That tuition was so high they needed to discount? Personally, I thought mixing financial aid and merit aid and calling it “discounting” made the analysis less clear (how much of the increase over time is due to increased merit aid versus financial aid for example)</p>