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<p>I agree with Vonlost. The schools who can’t fill their incoming classes will have to lower prices, or they won’t survive. The schools who can, will continue to raise their prices.</p>
<p>And when the schools that are giving good aid can not continue to do so, they will stop, or limit the amount of aid.</p>
<p>vonlost the FA/gov’t loan system is precisely designed to prevent supply and demand from determining pricing which is why every single school costs exactly the same more or less. It’s like a chevy priced the same as a BMW. Haven’t you ever wondered how that could be possible? lookfwd and others are left arguing about whether is precisely the 85th or 87th% which of course varies from study to study. lookfwd do you believe Medicare is sustainable with say a 60 trillion unfunded liability? College tuition while different is following the same trajectory as healthcare costs. It is unsustainable. By any rational analysis this is a fact.</p>
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Uh, no. If that were the case all schools would cost ~$11K because that is what a Pell Grant and Stafford loan would pay for. Student loans are designed to provide students who come from less well off families a way to attend a college, advance their education, and potentially earn more income.<br>
You really need to do some research or get out of your cave. NYU costs >$38K/year for tuition only. Sinclair Community College near me costs ~$2K/year for tuition. A year at Wright State University costs $18K WITH room and board.</p>
<p>Schools that “can’t fill freshman classes” will need to try more than just dropping prices. Vonlost includes “or ???.” </p>
<p>Schools watch enrollment trends and what kids want. They’ve shifted tactics, as needed, for the past 40 years. Women’s colleges have been going coed. Even HPY, Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia, Tulane, Tufts went coed; if they had sister-schools, most just rolled them into the main. </p>
<p>They increased the number of research and TA positions available to students, increased “career planning” for jobs and internships, invested in technology in labs and classrooms, libraries and more. Most increased the array of classes offered. Nearly all have pumped up study abroad opps (in the 70’s, just a handful ran these programs.) Many instituted 4-6 week short-terms. Yeah, many spiffed up dorms, provide better food, added A/C, increased security, and built concert venues. We could fill a thread with talk about this evolution. </p>
<p>Carleton had 5000 apps for about 500 slots, Dartmouth 18,000+ for 1100 slots. Northwestern states nearly 31,000 apps – up 12 percent from last year and nearly double the number received for fall 2005. “Since 2001, applications are up by 121 percent.”</p>
<p>That’s why it’s “big news” when a Sewanee drops prices. </p>
<p>SAY, you need to pose medicare questions on a govt forum. Please don’t diminish our viewpoints with unsupported statements and then call that “analysis.”</p>
<p>Well, SAY, we each have our opinion; mine is that from the demand side prices at selective schools are close because they deliver a comparable product, a four-year degree leading to a job or grad school, and on the supply side schools closely watch the prices set by competitors. In general, selective school seats are still in short supply (acceptance rates well below 50%), leading to upward pressure on prices.</p>
<p>Ok So perhaps I’m naive as the day is long but I truly don’t know many six figure earners getting what I call financial aid overall. What I call financial aid is GRANT money. The plus loan isn,t even remotely market competitive interest-wise and the fed loans are essentially too small to be meaningful at a private (but are essential for local /regional pursuits to children from lower income families.) institutional need-based aid is indeed discretionary and is funded by endowments generated by alumni.
All of that said and having come from a county originally that had a vastly different social contract around education, I don’t disagree that the education bubble in America is every bit as corrupted, systemically dysfunctional and poised for possible disaster as markets such as real estate or banking. But what I feel the solutions are would not be considered palatable in a free market, individualist-focused society.
The very first problem in controlling costs in both the public and private university settings is tied to the consumers expectation and the “edifice complex” as someone so aptly put it on this board. The second is as fundamental as state rights which cause uneven, non-centralized higher Ed funding and the phenom of out of state tuition. The third is the existence of private schools at all. Just like healthcare, it is extremely difficult to regulate a two-tiered system. And the last piece is a predatory lending system.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that if we as a society are not willing to centrally fund higher education through our taxes then it comes down to every man/kid/family for themselves. Which is, I suspect, why folks spend their time in angst over what someone else is getting instead of focusing on solutions about humane ways to collectively educate our children and maintain a competitive and innovative world position. The results of Pisa this year should scare people into reconsidering the us approach to education. When we’re 38th in the world among 15 year olds while neighboring Canada is 8th, you’ve got to ask yourself what’s different. I can tell you that the difference isn’t the number of immigrants who don,t speak English or poverty proportions or what teachers earn (they actually often earn more) or any of the other excuses I’ve heard. The difference is that whether they like it or not, Canadians pay for the EQUAL education of every child with their centralized, aggregated tax dollars. individual consumers pay about 6k out of pocket for tuition and there is only minimal merit aid but ample financial aid. So you might expect that Canadian universities might not rank well world wide. On the contrary, most are in the top 200 worldwide and some are right up there with the Us’s top 20 – and a few outperform even the elite privates that somehow rationalize COAs in the high 50s.</p>
<p>All of THAT said, I can pretty much PAY the difference here in tax savings 
And yes, my kid goes to a tippy top American public that is a terrific school and that I wouldn’t trade for the world. But every smart kid should have what he’s getting, and I know many who can’t.</p>
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<p>Wait. What?</p>
<p>Privates can run anywhere from $35,000-$60,000/year, so I don’t agree that “every single school costs exactly the same more or less.”</p>
<p>V and Kmc, great posts. It certainly appears that demand is high and hasn’t peaked yet- and we’re past the baby boomers. </p>
<p>What I keep repeating is that aid, in principle, is based on income + assets minus adjustments + allowances. So, a family earning 180k or more could certainly get some form of grant aid, if they had, eg, a large family, multiple in college, higher med expenses or something else that qualifies. (And, they picked a school with funds to offer.) Lifestyle choices such as expensive homes don’t count. As far as I know, paying $5300/year for parking doesn’t count. And, a family at 100k could conceivably get little or none, depending on assets. </p>
<p>Carleton has a breakout of aid by income. $200k+ does show grants. Again, it does not show what family circumstances led to this aid. Again, FA is not based solely on income.</p>
<p>kmc, I agree there are problems. It goes hand in hand with other social issues, where the US ranks poorly. I agree with your assessment of some core issues. I’d add that we are an extremely competitive nation- too many want some feeling that we are as good as, or better than, the next guy. Many feel this has to be in visible or discernable terms, whether it’s the toys and trappings or the college decal in the car window. </p>
<p>Too often, our “value” as people is tied to wealth accumulation. Some will try to explain this- eg, sure, the surgeon makes big bucks, but he saves lives. He’s more “productive.” And, we try to categorize. Earlier in this thread, eg, there was rant against the govt attorney (easy job/tremendous benefits) versus the private practice lawyer (toiling long hours, no benefits.) No one stopped to reflect on what each was actually doing- maybe the govt guy works on laws that affect quality of life for many while the PP lawyer is defending a slumlord. Who knows? </p>
<p>As for college costs, of course they vary. SAYing *every single school costs exactly the same more or less * is inaccurate. Every single school? Not. It would have been fine to qualify it: many top schools seem to cost nearly the same. Or, many of the most expensive schools seem to.</p>
<p>This discussion has always been about private schools. Here is just one list. All the prices of vastly different ranked schools are essentially the same. On this tread we are only talking at most about the top 75 schools and yes they do have almost identical pricing. Are any of you really claiming that a $1-2000 difference out of 60k has any relevant meaning? </p>
<p>[58</a> private colleges and universities now cost at least $50,000 per year, reports The Chronicle of Higher Education - The Curious Capitalist - TIME.com](<a href=“http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2009/11/03/do-we-need-a-czar-for-college-tuition/]58”>58 private colleges and universities now cost at least $50,000 per year, reports The Chronicle of Higher Education | TIME.com)</p>
<p>58 schools and they all charge essentially the same amount. How could such widely differening schools all come up with the same price?</p>
<p>lookfwd there are not remotely 58 top schools in America yet they all charge the same as Harvard.</p>
<p>So here are #1,#51 ,and #94. The costs are $38,416, $41,884, and $37,378 respectively. So the 94th ranked school is within 700$ of #1. The facts speak for themselves. </p>
<p>[Harvard</a> University | Best College | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/harvard-university-2155]Harvard”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/harvard-university-2155)</p>
<p>[Tulane</a> University | Best College | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/tulane-university-2029]Tulane”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/tulane-university-2029)</p>
<p>[University</a> of San Diego | Best College | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-san-diego-10395]University”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-san-diego-10395)</p>
<p>[Alfred</a> University : Undergraduate Cost of Attendance](<a href=“http://www.alfred.edu/finaid/undergraduate_cost.cfm]Alfred”>http://www.alfred.edu/finaid/undergraduate_cost.cfm) $25,000 /year</p>
<p>[Cornell</a> University: Tuition Rates and Fees](<a href=“http://www.dfa.cornell.edu/dfa/treasurer/bursar/studentsparents/tuition/index.cfm#CP_JUMP_175485]Cornell”>http://www.dfa.cornell.edu/dfa/treasurer/bursar/studentsparents/tuition/index.cfm#CP_JUMP_175485) $27,000 / year</p>
<p>This was just off the top of my head from my limited experience. I am sure there are other schools/programs that have lower tuition than the 58 on that list.</p>
<p>susgeek that is not correct for most students. Alfred University is irrelevant. I’m not trying to be difficult but these facts are very easy to know. I repeat again. All of the top and near top and not so top schools cost the same within a very few dollars. The best place to check is the US News College Site. </p>
<p>Undergraduate Tuition
College Per Semester Per Year
Endowed Ithaca
Architecture, Art and Planning; Arts and Sciences; Engineering; Hotel Administration; Unclassified, through the Internal Transfer Division $20,662.50 $41,325.00
Contract - New York State Resident
Agriculture and Life Sciences; Human Ecology; Industrial and Labor Relations
$12,592.50 $25,185.00
Contract Nonresident
Agriculture and Life Sciences; Human Ecology; Industrial and Labor Relations
$20,662.50 $41,325.00</p>
<p>Here is the listing for Alfred University. I’m sure it works for some students but is not what this discussion is about.</p>
<p>Admissions Data (2009):
•Percent of Applicants Admitted: 70%
•Test Scores – 25th / 75th Percentile
•SAT Critical Reading: 490 / 600
•SAT Math: 510 / 600
•SAT Writing: - / -</p>
<p>Rice costs $33k in tuition (and is perennially ranked in the top 20).</p>
<p>Here is exactly the kind of nonsense I’ve been discussing about the current FA system. This applicant probably will get far less aid/no aid than the child of a state/federal union worker making 80-100k who in reality is much better off because of the benefits and great pension. </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1154156-fa-family-farm-top-tier.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1154156-fa-family-farm-top-tier.html</a></p>
<p>Yes Rice is one of the few top schools that is slightly cheaper but once again the price difference is relatively small and probably has more to do with being located in Houston. After all when total costs are calculated it’s only about 10% cheaper than the top five which is not very significant. </p>
<p>[Rice</a> | Rice University | Best College | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rice-3604]Rice”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rice-3604)</p>
<p>The bottom line is there is less money out there for ALL students. My nephew, 35 ACT, valedictorian at a math/science magnet high school, eagle scout, etc, was offered minimal aid to some of the top schools in the US. His parents had erroneously planned that he would get much aid and had to scramble to make different plans. Nephew was surrounded by peers who had similar or lesser offers, but decided to go to the more expensive schools because it would look better on a resume.</p>
<p>He went to a college that was not a first, second, third, or fourth choice. I advised him to take the 18 AP credits (scored 5’s) and move to the next level classes where the learning curve was harder, take a lab job, live cheap, and work HARD. No car, no TV, and a tracphone.</p>
<p>Fast forward two years later. He now has a coveted internship and is well on his way to a double degree in four years. Peers have figured out that they will have MASSIVE student loan debts and there is little light at the end of their tunnels.</p>
<p>Why is it when your student sells their chemistry book online, it is bought by someone from another school across the country? Is it because there is a similar thread of consistency in chemistry education across the country?</p>
<p>Go to the college you can afford and get on with it!</p>
<p>That sadly is not uncommon, though to really understand the situation more details about the parents are required. Where did he end up? But yes today many upper middle class kids are being priced out of the top schools. However from my experience it seems a few other options were available. At the top ten or so his scores while great are not rare in the student body. There are a few schools such as USC that would almost certainly given him a 1/2 tuition scholarship because they “pay up” for scores. My college rooomate’s kid went to a top five prep school and had 2200 SAT’s. He wanted the west coast and USC gave him that offer and I know a very similar local kid who got the same. The money is purely based on scores so USC can look better in the rankings. Now USC is not elite but today it’s a very good school.</p>
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<p>It’s because I’ve been reading here for a long time (long before I created an ID here) that I can say that ideas like divorces of convenience, hiding windfalls and quitting work get shot down by respected long-time knowledgeable posters. I’ve never seen any of these ideas get support from the eminice grises here. These ideas may get floated, but the posters here who have the most experience and who actually work in the field state time and time again that these are terrible ideas. </p>
<p>There may be people who manage to cheat the system, but they’re not getting support here. And there are people who will try to cheat the system, but who will end up losing money in the attempt.</p>