<p>My family used to complain about folks with what they called “bootstrapper mentality.” Ie, I made it, so why can’t he? The phrase is fine, when it is used as an encouragement. But, not so nice as a diss. You are implying that you are special, that you uniquely made the hard choices and kept your nose to the grinstone, that your sacrifices are somehow more significant than the next guy’s and that he is somehow less for living his life differently than you. No mercy? No sense of the struggles out there? </p>
<p>If you want to rail about some particular act of scamming you are personally aware of, fine. But, you are indicting whole masses of folks who try to lead a decent life, as best they can.</p>
It seems to me that you are saying that anyone who does not have as their highest priority “make as much money as you possibly can” should be punished by not getting aid, while those who DO make the most money should get even more money even though they don’t technically NEED it. You tried to exempt “the poor” from your calculus, but very often they are poor, or remain poor, in part because of choices they have made, just as everyone else finds themselves in whatever position they are in due in part to their own choices.</p>
<p>Part of the problem with this thinking is that there is no real upper bound to your logical position.</p>
<p>The numbers being thrown around are wildly inaccurate and ignore state taxes, property taxes and all the rest of the true costs of living. Look I have absolutely no problem with anyone choosing whatever career path that suits them but why in the world should such people be rewarded with money for college for making those purely voluntary choices. So if the family next door making 75-100k was fortunate enough to inherit 500-700k and they chose to blow all the money on vacations and new cars the posters here would still say when it came time for college they deserve FA. Where does personal responsiblity fit into this? The bottom line is that college is vastly overpriced and the FA system creates a complete disconnect between the value of the degree and the cost of the degree because all of the families making below around 175k are getting big discounts. Everyone making over 60-80k should be paying the same price and then and only then the colleges will be forced to produce a product that is worth the cost. How can the 100th ranked private school cost the same as the top five? Where is this going to end? Tuition keeps going up 4-7% every year so that in 10-15 years the cost will be pushing 100-120k per year mostly for degrees that offer the graduate very little chance of qualifying for a good jobs. At that point even people at 300k+ simply won’t be able to afford the cost of college. So then it’s off to professional school which costs even more. Most of you on this board don’t seem to realize that the system is in crisis and need a drastic overhaul for the good of the country. The current system is mostly about feeding the educational beast where a large percentage of the students get very little value for the cost/debt they incur.</p>
<p>Disagree. There are many posters on this board who have a family income of 120,000, so about 50k less than 175,000 and they are being offered only loans in their package.</p>
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<p>Disagree. It is not fair now, IMO, that a family with an income of 200k and a modest home gets as much aid (zero) as the family who has millions in assets and an income of 500,000/year.</p>
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<p>Could not agree more! Something must change, and I thought it would a long time ago. I was wrong. Middle class can no longer afford a public U in my state (close enough to 25k after R&B, fees, books).</p>
<p>NEmom remember I’m only talking about the top schools that set the monopoly prices. At say Harvard a family that makes 175k pays only 17.5k out of 60k which to me is a big discount. At a state school you are correct. On your second point we agree but after 200k everyone is treated the same. The truth is the cost should be lowered for everyone.</p>
<p>The numbers being thrown around are wildly inaccurate and ignore state taxes, property taxes and all the rest of the true costs of living.</p>
<p>So, I just recalculated net income for NYC, including state and NY City taxes- I’d think that’s going to be a pretty high tax situation, comparatively. So, my adjusted figure for 300k is roughly 15k net per month. And, in my former calc, above, I DID include a $1500 monthly fee for property taxes.</p>
<p>But, discretionary expenses still don’t count. You can’t say, well I live in a million dollar home, my mortgage is bigger. Or, well, I need the club membership to entertain clients. Or, the other three kids are in an expensive prep.</p>
<p>Yes, colleges are outrageously expensive- but, among families inclined toward prestige schools, there is no serious trend to send their kids to less expensive options. Kids and families what what they want. Demand drives price. If anyone feels it’s all too expensive, they should choose any less expensive option. But, nooooo.</p>
<p>Likewise, among families whose kids’ best acceptances are from expensive 3rd tier schools, many of them want to fulfill their kids dreams.</p>
<p>I have an odd feeling our collective legs are being pulled here. We are arguing about a family earning 300k paying for college.</p>
<p>University of the South (Sewanee) cut their tuition by 10%, when it was apparent they were losing applicants to public schools, thus lowering their yield.</p>
<p>SAY, I did not know that you were referring to the Ivies. I thought you were discussing the majority of colleges/Us out there. I feel that I am right about private schools for the B/B+ student. At our state schools, if you are making any income above 100,000 and only have one child in college (probably true for 2 in college) you will not see any financial aid grants either (there could be a subsidized student loan for the family with 2 in college). NJ is my state, and there isn’t much money for FA grants to be offered. The typical family making 100k-175k is not getting “big discounts”, or any discount at our state schools. Bottom line is that the family with a 400k income and the family with a 90k income, is going to be paying sticker price at our state schools if we are talking about 1 child in college.</p>
<p>SLUMOM, I do agree with your point, that some private schools in the south (especially those that get a good percentage of their students locally) could not afford to climb to the same sticker prices as schools in other areas of the country. I think that this will change over time as some state school pricing climb (happening right now, unfortunately).</p>
<p>NE mom this is an old topic on CC and always centers only on the top 30 private schools which is a somewhat narrow focus but is why sites like CC exist. Once you get out of the top schools competitive admission is mostly gone and the issues are different. But all the same why is the 100th ranked school priced the same as the top 15? Mainly because FA allows monopolistic pricing so the there is no competition between the schools. You realize that college admission is not a fair exchange between seller and buyer. Would you ever pay the same price for a Camry as a Mercedes. In the real world the top 15 might be priced as is but the lower ranked schools should be much cheaper. Again I ask the posters how do any of you see this ending up in 15 years? Can college from any school be worth 100-120k/year? How can an undergraduate degree cost 500k when it qualifies the recipient mostly just for grad/professional school and no real job that would ever allow them to pay off the 500k. If you think I’m making this up go look at law school today. The end result is a generation of students starting life with huge loans they often can’t repay all to feed the educational beast. As I said before the cost of college should be priced at the value of the degree. How else can it be sustainable? This is why FA cause such a problem because so many families are shielded from the true cost of the tuition which allows it to keep rising. In many ways it’s just like third party payors in healthcare. If you don’t directly pay the bill you are less concerned about the cost. The schools have been very clever to set it up this way but in the end it is not a sustainable educational model.</p>
<p>So, if it gets be 100K/year for private college, then many just won’t enroll. </p>
<p>Competition to get into public universities will be a cut throat process, making our publics out of reach for many. As Northeastmom pointed out, many publics are out of reach financially for some families, even now. </p>
<p>Possibly some private colleges not in the Top 30 could close. Will it get to that point?
Supply & demand, after all! Gotta fill those classrooms & dormitories with students!</p>
<p>The way I heard it re: Sewanee was that they cut their tuition but will stop offering much/any merit aid–essentially it sounds like they are trying to get out of the sticker price vs discounted price game, and are just offering the real price. I’d be surprised if they did something that would ultimately hurt them financially. It will probably be a wash.</p>
<p>SLUMOM, it is getting to that point. A number of colleges are discounting tuition costs for for families that can pay full freight in an effort to get them to enroll at their school. Some “scholarships” that kids I know got were laughable considering the kid is barely getting through high school, yes, a college prep school and SATs in the 1500-1800 range. The thing they have going for them is that they are not applying for financial aid and if certain colleges can hook a number of these kids and discount their tuitions by about $5K, then they can make a big fat $50K still pure cash off of them, to meet the bills. </p>
<p>I notice a lot of the Catholic schools are in trouble. They are not attracting the males, for one thing. And unless they offer good discounts, they aren’t getting the kids. Not at sticker price of $50K+. But the lines are even longer at HPY where everyone is waving their money to get in the door. Those schools can probably charge $250K a year and still get takers that are qualified. Enough to give financial aid for those who can’t and are even more qualified. </p>
<p>The way the numbers look to me, the most selective colleges are underpriced and the less selective ones are overpriced. If we let it go free market, it would be interesting to see what would happen.</p>
<p>I’ve often said that I support taking government funding as much as possible from the private schools and using the money to shore up the state systems. I don’t think the states should be giving money to private colleges with so much that needs to be done in their own systems. Community Colleges need to be upgraded and coordinated with 4 year state schools so that academic preparation and transfer is smooth. State schools should be the best in the state, not privates. Take the money that is being given to the privates and work on upgrading those state schools. Virginia , MI, WI, CA are good models in that direction as is Florida. But there are other things that need to be done there as well.</p>
<p>I have seen a “train wreck” in the making for some time now. I thought prices would stop climbing a few years ago. I was wrong. At some point something in the mix has to change. We have too young people and their parents taking on too much debt to pay for a college education. Public school pricing in many states are currently out of hand for the middle class and for below middle class families. Look at what the family needs to earn if there is no assistance to the middle class student and the COA is 24k per year and community college is 5k per year (not including books) plus a car (not all can be reached through public transit, as is the case for us).</p>
<p>I agree. I know some families (not many only because I don’t travel in these circles) who I believe would spend 200,000 per year because they have it to spend to send their child to a most selective school. They don’t have to spend it, because the schools are not priced high enough FOR THEM. They are a small % of America’s population, but they are there.</p>
The actual cost of attendence is the cost after financial and merit aid. My second fits in the 3.0-3.4 student thread and when his options came into focus if I round a little they cam out like this …</p>
<ul>
<li>(pretty) highly selective private school … full price = $55,000</li>
<li>in-state state school = $20,000</li>
<li>other options (OOS state school and OK private schools) = $35,000
these schools started less expensive (which I was surprised about) than the full price highly selective school and lowered the price more with merit bucks.</li>
</ul>
<p>This last group came pretty close to splitting the difference between our state school and the high-end of fully priced privates … financial aid did not come into the picture … and I’m wondering if it was a coincidence or not these options came out so close to each other and in the middle of the state school - private school range … with no info I’m guessing it was not random and a calculated guess of how what price point gave them the best odds of SecondToGo attending.</p>
<p>Don’t we have too many posts on CC where the parent is dead set on providing the kid with the expensive “dream school,” though he/she feels the aid is inadequate? And, we hear this regardless of whether it’s a truly great school or one that doesn’t offer much in the way of quality education.</p>
<p>That’s part of why we find so many parents taking on too much debt to pay for a college education. This unwillingness to walk away has to factor in the blame.</p>
<p>Many of us started on day one when we were handed our babies, in wanting to give the child everything and anything that is good and wanted. Education certainly ranks way up there. I know I wanted that baby and the subsequent ones to be able to go to any school they wanted. I also wanted them to go to the top schools. </p>
<p>It’s hard to let go of that. Many of us have been able to give our kids most of what they want. Maybe too much. But nothing costs like a quarter million dollar education which is what a top cost private college can ask. That is when it truly is not possible to give that to a child if the finances are not there. But I can understand the unwillingness to walk away.</p>
<p>It’s not as difficult when the choice is between say, Dickinson and Binghamton. Both good schools. One costs $20K total. the other nearly $60K. A lot of parents can draw the line right there. BUt if the kid gets into HPY, then that becomes a whole other issue.</p>