<p>Spelling is not my forte, especially when I am typing fast. Good to know it’s just my spelling that’s driving you crazy, because I can’t say the same for your posts.</p>
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<p>The point of these examples is that individuals can attain high levels of income in many different ways, and most of them didn’t require anything approaching a high-powered education. All the folks that I listed achieved their income by simply finding a need and filling it. They created value that others were willing to pay for, and none of it involved exploiting others (as in BillyMc’s “fixed pie” fallacy). This can be done in many fields, in many ways. My examples are only a very short list from a few neighborhood friends. I picked them because they’re very ordinary, non-elitist endeavors.</p>
<p>In our society, an individual can go out, achieve something, and be rewarded for it. Why do you find that notion to be so disturbing? It’s the way our world works.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree that an individual can be rewarded for doing anything well, but to say an average plumber or electrician could do well financially is not substantiated. A plumber who owns a company by offering good plumbing service could make a lot of money. A cleaning person offering cleaning service to more clients could make a lot of money. But an individual plumber or cleaning person could not do well financially. The only way they would be able to make more money is by profiting from their employees(plumbers or cleaning people) they have hired. At the sametime whenever someone owns a company with people on their payroll, they are also taking on a lot more risk - no risk, no reward.</p>
<p>By just being a plumber doesn’t mean it is a ticket to print cash. It takes a lot of hard work and ingenuity to get rich from it, and often it requires knowledge in how to run a company (accounting, finance, marketing).</p>
<p>I will say it again, supply and demand, if it is so easy to get rich by being a plumber, a lot more people would be doing it. If my plumber was that well, I would ask him to lower his price.</p>
<p>Here is an accurate analysis for all the posters like Ghostt, Kelsmom, STove and lookingforward to check the numbers for a family making 250k. In this case they are employees so the 250k is roughly the same as 300k if you were not employees like docs or attorneys in private practice. While one can quibble with some of the numbers notice that these families were only able to save 8k per year for college. Now I actually think one can do better than that but it just highlights the crisis in college costs for the so called affluent. </p>
<p>[Down</a> and Out on $250,000 a Year](<a href=“Down and Out on $250,000 a Year | The Fiscal Times”>Down and Out on $250,000 a Year | The Fiscal Times)</p>
<p>LET THEM EAT CAKE, indeed!
SAY, what is your dog in this race?</p>
<p>It’s another media “whip 'em into a frezny” tale.
And, includes:
By most measures, a $250,000 household income is substantial. It is six times the national average, and just 2.9 percent of couples earn that much or more. “For the average person in this country, a $250,000 household income is an unattainably high annual sum — they’ll never see it.</p>
<p>Just look at the examples: 9000 for out of pocket medical and dental, 2250 for sales tax (at 7% that’s $30,000 in spending!!!,) nearly 20k on daycare and “camps,” 5k on cleaning (OMG,) 5300 on parking fees (OMG,) 15,000 on the “leisure category.”</p>
<p>I’ll stop there. OMG. To the max. I am supposed to feel sorry???
Are you serious or is this a leg-pull?
Is it time to say ■■■■■?</p>
<p>oldfort - It just so happens that I know quite a few plumbers, all the way back to my childhood, and every one of them is doing very well (as in full-pay, easily). Most of them are doing extremely well, far better than the full-pay line. Read “The Millionaire Next Door” to get the concept.</p>
<p>In my own experience, plumbing stands out as a reliable way to earn substantial dollars without being exceptionally creative, or taking on big risks. All it requires is knowledge, skill, and reliability. That’s why I use that particular example; not everybody is creative, or wants to take big risks.</p>
<p>Of course, once again, I’ll step back and ask you not to focus on being a plumber. That’s not the point; it’s just a simple example. Please consider the big picture: In a relatively free society, individuals are able to do well by providing services that others want.</p>
<p>My God, it’s all around us. Get out of your house, walk down the side streets near the business districts, see the immigrants who are here because they understand this concept. They came here for the incredible advantages that long-time Americans don’t even recognize. Talk to them - they think we’re all lazy! They don’t understand that as a society, we’ve forgotten that it’s all about creating value - while they’ve been dreaming of having the opportunity to do so.</p>
<p>Just as the article says 250k in LA,SD.SF,NY,Boston, etc is a far cry from 250k in a small town in the midwest. I agree that some of the costs could be adjusted but the childcare costs far from being ridiculous are quite accurate for two working professionals with young children. These high income jobs are not 9-5 and often require flexibility which is expensive. These numbers were run by professional experts and everyone in this income class will know that while they may be exactly right they are not wildly wrong either. Keep in mind none of these people had children in private school,belonged to any country clubs, or took anything close to a lavish vacations. The point here is that life for working couples in many costal cities is very expensive and the posters who write on these blogs about how such 250k families can easily just save for college or pay the tuition out of regular income are just plain wrong. The system is broken and can not be sustained with tuition increasing faster than inflation or wage growth.</p>
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We happen to be one of those immigrants. My father worked at 3 jobs (gardener, waiter, factory worker) to support us until he got his master degree in engineering. He then put 4 kids through best colleges in this country by taking out 2 home equity loans, borrowed against his 401k…He figured education was going to be the best way out of poverty and financial security in the US. He was right. All of my sibling’s income is in the top 1% of income earners.</p>
<p>I know many immigrants in NYC - Korean grocery store owners, Chinese dry cleaners, Middle Easterner newspaper stand owners…They are all busting their behind in order to send their kids to top colleges in hope their kids wouldn’t end up doing what are doing. Those immigrants understand better than anyone else that education is their ticket out of poverty. It is why you see so many Asians at Stuyvesant High.</p>
<p>The fact that so many middle class are not able to afford college tuition will create even more of “haves” and “have nots” in this country. Plumbers and electricians will not be the next upper class in the US.</p>
<p>Read this article and replace law student with most undergraduate degrees from any top school and you get almost the same thing at the same cost with the same scandal. </p>
<p><a href=“For Law School Graduates, Debts if Not Job Offers - The New York Times”>For Law School Graduates, Debts if Not Job Offers - The New York Times;
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Hate to say it, but $100/week for cleaning is hardly in the OMG category.</p>
<p>Where I live it’s about four hours of work/week using a basic house cleaner who provides their own transportation. Healthcare and dental care are expensive. Braces alone for each child run 4-6k. As for sales tax it’s 8.75% where I live so the spending is roughtly 2k/month which is probably about right for a family like this. They are affluent but not even close rich in any of the major metro areas that support high paying jobs.</p>
<p>SAY, to post 127: I have to note, many of those expenses could be the same for the family that earns far less. Daycare is not income-based, med insurance costs for a family of four can be the same for any two employees in the same firm, under that company’s plan. (In fact, we pay a higher amount than quoted in the article.) And, any of us can be hit with disastrous medical expenses or the emergency costs of a trip to take care of a sick older relative.</p>
<p>I’d be interested to learn how other folks here relate the dollar details in the chart to their own budgets, as parents concerned about college costs. Daycare is one example of something most families with school-age kids can ignore. $9000 for out-of-pocket medical/dental is awfully high for a family with insurance- wouldn’t it assume a catastrophy? $21500 is used for food/household supplies, take-out, lunches, dining out, entertainment and entertaining at home. I don’t think we even spend half that. Should I be writing a book? We live well. </p>
<p>And, spending $5200 on a cleaning service is one of the things I consider discretionary, though I agree that’s what it costs, on average. The chart is an eye-opener, but I find it padded. ?</p>
<p>The “Jones’s” in the 250k income article wouldn’t pay any extra taxes - they have lots of deductions (mortgage, med expenses, childcare…) that will drop their AGI well below the 250 k threshold)</p>
<p>I am going to weigh in on the plumber debate. </p>
<p>Yes, it is absolutely possible to make good money as a plumber. I grew up the daughter of a master plumber who owned his own business and when times were good- they were very good. Unfortunately, with my dad’s car accident, he can no longer do plumbing. It’s very fickle that way. Once you’re unable to do even some plumbing tasks, you can no longer be a plumber. It’s not really a job where you can compensate by doing other things, like you can in a lot of other jobs. </p>
<p>However, my dad was the exception of all the plumbers I knew. Most made barely enough to keep themselves afloat. Master plumbers did well, but it is actually quite difficult to get your master’s license. Most were journeyman or apprentices and they were paid significantly less because you still have to work under someone, rather than working on your own. I myself have my journeyman’s license and it was near impossible to find work with it because companies are simply not hiring- just as in every area of the economy. The companies who are hiring are paying low wages. </p>
<p>Plumbers and electricians are some of the hardest workers I’ve ever met. When normal people get holidays and weekends off, these are the times when tradesmen work the hardest. I can’t tell you the amount of times that my dad had to go out on Christmas Eve, Christmas, etc because someone’s pipe burst or their hot water tanks went out. He missed a lot of things because of this and worked harder than anyone I’ve ever met, even if his paycheck didn’t always reflect it (he did a lot of free work around the holidays because people couldn’t pay and my dad could never say no). </p>
<p>Now, looking at his paychecks, people would argue that he never worked hard. During the best of times, my dad probably pulled in $60k a year. However, he was self-employed (which is why he could make that much) so everything came out of pocket- our healthcare, insurance, union dues, any tools that he needed, etc- and therefore that 60k was NOTHING like what actually came home at the end of the day. And, as I said, it was short lived because of a drunk driver. But, my dad was one of the hardest working people I know. </p>
<p>Now… I highly encourage people to go into the trades. Less and less people are doing them AND they are something that can’t really be outsourced. You’re always going to need a plumber and you’re not going to fly one in from India. Because of the fact that less people are going into the trades, my dad has noticed that there is more and more high demand for GOOD tradesmen- more than there has been his whole life. As I said, I have my journeyman’s and am still working a little here and there, keeping my license recent, etc. Even though I am graduating with a BA and a BS in a few years and then hopefully going on to get my JD and MA in Bioethics, I am still keeping my plumber’s license as a viable backup in case I cannot find work- something that is highly likely. I wish more good students looked into trades, too, rather than simply those that can’t get in to a 4-year college. </p>
<p>Sorry, bit of a tangent, but it had kind of been in me and I wanted to get this ramble out there.</p>
<p>lookingforward I’m not trying to have an argument but only point out that when posters so glibbly state that people who make 250-300k can easily save for college or pay out of pocket they are incorrect. For a family in this relative income range with 2-3 children the cost of a private college and grad school(the best way a person today can have a good chance of obtaining a high paying job) is can be far greater than all the income taxes they pay over a lifetime. </p>
<p>For these families the cost of college has really become a sort of extra massive income tax that forces them to pay almost 100% of all income. This is why I said way back in an earlier post that it makes no sense for a family like this to save for college. Do the math it makes little sense. It’s far smarter for the wife to retire and drop their income to 125k. The point is that this extra massive “college tax” punishes the educated but not rich class of America and destroys the incentive to work hard because they will just lose the extra money paying for college. Plain and simple it’s bad policy to severely punish productivity and reward the less productive. Remember I’m not talking about the true poor. </p>
<p>Today the NYT ran that very article and notice that they did not quibble with the math because being based in NYC the writers know them from their own lives. Please read the previous attachments about law school and you will quickly see how that relates to undergrad. But in law school the correcting process is underway because there is very little FA distorting the process. </p>
<p><a href=“Rich and Sort of Rich - The New York Times”>Rich and Sort of Rich - The New York Times;
<p>SAY, the thoughts that your write about are not popular on CC. I do agree with many of them. Since I live in NJ, I am well aware that property taxes in CT, NJ, NY can be range from 9-15k per year for a middle class home. In some other areas of the country a much nicer home, might have property taxes of 3-5k per year. I have two relatives that started out in jobs in the NYC area. They got wise and were able to transfer within the same companies that they were working for to go to a state with a much lower cost of living. Their incomes did not decrease to match, in fact one transferred because he was going to get a job promotion if he made this move. His lifestyle went from living in a small condo (very middle class community), to living in a home that would cost over 750,000 in the suburbs of NYC (these home sell for 300,000 where he now resides). His property taxes were cut by more than 50% as well. I cannot begin to tell you how much nicer his newer home is than where he was living. His money goes so much further since relocating, and his quality of life is much better. </p>
<p>The problem is that FAFSA does not account for this difference ENOUGH, IMO. You will never “win” the argument because people will tell you that where you choose to live is a “choice”, and costs of living are accounted for in the FAFSA. The fact that someone in NYC cannot save as much as someone working for a national company (no income drop) in a much lower cost area is not going to be acknowledged to the point of making a significant difference in what one pays for college. That is just not going to change enough to make any difference that you would notice in your own wallet.</p>
<p>There are individual exceptions and anecdotes in both directions, but the average cost of housing in a given area is what the average person/family there can bear. If costs get too high or low, some will leave and others move in (perhaps with gentrification or blight).</p>
<p>The basic, perennial problem represented by the NYT article is the assumption that if you make a higher income, you “need” to live the lifestyle that is perceived as going with it. Given that assumption–that expenditures rise with income–of course you’ll never get ahead and have enough left to pay for college. It’s logically impossible.</p>
<p>And the answer, of course, is to not live a 250k lifestyle. that means not owning a house with a 30K-plus annual mortgage on it. Who lives in a house at that price? Not the middle class that I know. Or a car whose payments cost over 7K a year. that’s more than 500/month payments–luxury car territory.</p>
<p>Cut back or eliminate the yearly 4K trip. Clean your own house. Eat out less. Go out less. Pack a lunch for work. don’t live so far from work that you need to spend 100/wk on driving. Cut out the summer camps/enrichment.</p>
<p>Just a smaller house would cut tens of thousands from property taxes and mortgage payments. </p>
<p>I mean, I know I’ve said this a ton of times before, but living an affluent lifestyle is a choice, and if a family can’t afford all the big-ticket luxuries they want, then they need to pick and choose, like the rest of us living on a fraction of that (in NJ suburbs of NYC, in my case.)</p>
<p>Northeast, many.many people in the NYC area do not work for National companies, nor have skills that would be easily transferable. I blame our NY Senators and Representatives who never care about their own middle class non-union residents.</p>
<p>The federal government recognizes differences in cost of living when it pays its employees. (Although some people get lucky because the locality pay includes some localities that are much less expensive than others–Baltimore gets DC locality pay, for example.)</p>
<p>I’m sure it’s not enough to make up for the true differences in cost of living.</p>
<p>Where I live, a typical, non-mansion, comfortable suburban 4 bedroom center hall colonial costs $600K. It just does. (Prices have come down recently. You might be able to get one for closer to half a milllion.)</p>
<p>People already pack lunches, don’t go on vacations, etc.</p>