<p>I could not agree more Calmom with your view that the needs of the whole child must be considered rather than the more exclusive focus on intellectual attainments. As another poster mentioned, intellectual prowess does not translate into economic, social or artistic success. (One study several years ago found that the average IQ of corporate CEO's in this country was 115---such slackers). But intellectual prowess is a great advantage for kids because so much of their life and early opportunities center around academic education. It is in adulthood where failures in learning how to interact with the rest of the population has such a negative impact. I think we do our kids a disservice trying to endlessly seek out environments that "fit" them, rather than teach them essential interpersonal skills that help them fit in with the world at large.</p>
<p>Why do some people think that parents of gifted kids aren't concerned about the needs of the whole child? I knew that I didn't need to do much in the way of academic stimulation, other than to be sure they were always in a challenging program. Most of their childhood I was concerned about their social connections -- I was a SAHM, and made sure they were involved in play-dates as little guys, scouts, sports, clubs etc. I certainly didn't keep them in their rooms studying all day --I had to make sure they got OUT of their rooms. They have different personalities, and needed different things in the social realm. </p>
<p>But when they are atypical, as has been discussed here earlier, the intellectual ability has an influence on who they are as a "whole child." My point has been that having the "affliction" of an intellectual gift just makes them more challenging.</p>
<p>i remember distinctly the process of learning of "gifted" children and their needs. At that time, I read two very helpful books........think titles were "gifted girls" and another......."gifted girls II." has anyone else read these? they were truly a help to me back then in understanding more on the subject. there are most definitely differences in attitudes of teaching professionals and how they address the needs of gifted children in the classroom. while my d was able to adjust and florish, her younger sibling was stymied and stressed in the same environment, a private parochial school. was best for sibling to move to public school where they more openly address the needs of gifted children. each gifted child is different and may need a different "fit" in addressing their needs.</p>
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My point has been that having the "affliction" of an intellectual gift just makes them more challenging.
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What rubs me the wrong way is the view of the giftedness as an "affliction". Try being the parent of a kid with a learning disability or a serious physical handicap or a mental health problem for a week - you'll be very glad to have your kid's "affliction" of being smarter than average. </p>
<p>I was very fortunate and blessed that my first child was dyslexic as well as highly gifted. Definitely put my priorities in order. I admit that the giftedness did kind of stand in the way of getting the dyslexia diagnosed or addressed by the school (gifted kids with LD's tend not to score badly enough on tests to qualify for special ed services, nor are they well served by special ed - so they are more likely to be branded as lazy or seen as behavior problems). </p>
<p>Anyway, I don't view the dyslexia as an "affliction" either. Both are characteristics that are mixed blessings. Athletic or musical talent could also be seen as an "affliction" if the parent spends their life trying to find the coach or teacher that is able to maximize their child's skill level. I'm very proud of my kids' intellectual and artistic gifts, but I just don't think that they should be the the center point of our lives.</p>
<p>Calmom, I think you add a lot of value to the Parents Forum because you often present a very different point of view. It's always good to look at things through another's eyes. I find it a little frustrating though, that you persist in refuting the problems that some people have in dealing with gifted kids. They DO have special needs and can face emotional problems as a result of this. </p>
<p>It's like telling the parent of a child with anorexia that at least they don't have to worry about having a child with a weight problem. Neither is good, but if you only look at one side you are ignoring some very real problems. I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye on this subject and I won't continue to bring what I see as your one-sided point of view on this topic to your attention. I will continue to enjoy your opinion on other subjects.</p>
<p>You know, sjmom and calmom--I think the point we've ALL been missing is that EVERY SINGLE KID OUT THERE--whether gifted or not, dyslexic or not, "normal" or at the extremes--HAS SPECIAL NEEDS. Because every single child is different. </p>
<p>Perhaps some special needs are easier to meet than others, however.</p>
<p>dmd77, you are right, of course. I'd like to point out, though, that the theme of this thread had to do with finding the right college for academically gifted kids. I was looking for input from other parents, which I have greatly appreciated. And, in fact, the continued denial of some posters that gifted kids have any problems sort of makes my point in any case. I'm sure there are issues in finding the fit for other special needs kids, but that's not what I was looking for.</p>
<p>Well, sjmom, I'd have to say that I'd rather have the problems that come with gifted kids than the problems that come with kids with un-gifted kids (which we refer to, euphemistically, as "special needs"--as if every kid didn't have special needs).</p>
<p>Sjmom, I think the sticking point here is that you seem to identify giftedness as a condition which brings with it certain universal problems. I don't think there is any evidence that this is the case. Yes some gifted children may have certain problems such as social isolation, alienation, adjustment problems at school, but the majority do not. All anorexic, learning disabled, depressed kids have problems because they have a disorder, the very nature of which creates significant challenges for every kid that has the disorder. This is not the case for the class of kids labeled gifted.</p>
<p>Let's separate two things. Sjmom is a fairly new poster. I remember when I first showed up here there were things plagueing me I needed to vent about or discuss. It is perfectly possible that issues around her gifted kids plague Sjmom, more or less. But it can also be true that people can have gifted kids that don't plague them at all.</p>
<p>My D plagued me with her persistence. My S has been Mr. Sweetie most of his life. And me being me, I could probably worry about ANY kind of kids...</p>
<p>my daughter attends a high school where a large majority of the kids have participated in the highest level of the district gifted program.
Their parents are very involved and dedicated- obessed some might say- toward getting their children appropriate classes in high school.
even if that means getting their PE and OC-Ed requirements waived so they can take a 2nd language ( Japanese * and * Latin) or calculus in 9th gd.</p>
<p>However- the problems that these quick learners have are very different than those of students whose parents aren't so involved, who haven't been able to manuver through the district hoops, and who aren't ready for college level education in high school, and maybe even need extra support so that they can take high school level classes in high school/</p>
<p>The kids I see in teh public schools who are indentified as gifted are generally pretty straightforward learners. They do well on the group administered tests to indentify gifted learners, and they manage to progress even though the district has curriculum left over from the Reagan administration.</p>
<p>We have limited dollars in public school districts-and even though I have two kids who are "gifted" they also both have learning disabilties, and I am very aware of all the kids in teh district who are passed through from year to year, because teh class sizes are too big, because teaching kids basics because they didn't get it 3 years ago isn't as shiny as teaching the "AP" classes, and something that blows me away- that no one seems to realize that when students have learning challenges, it probably is a combination of nature/nuture.</p>
<p>Schools seem to expect that they can just tell parents to help their kids with school work, and those parents will magically be able to.
No one wants to admit, that for years- those students probably weren't taught in a way that they could progress, but it took a few years, for them to slip behind enough to be noticed.</p>
<p>No one wants to admit, that if a student has a mild to severe brain issue, whether it is ADD/dyslexia/anxiety, it is likely, their parents have some issues of their own, and that it is going to be difficult for their parents to pick up the slack when the district drops the ball.</p>
<p>I totally understand where calmom is coming from</p>
<p>My oldest- has been tested as having an IQ of 160. this is her overall iq and glosses over that some of her subtests were way below age level. The district told me,that to qualify for extra help, she needed to be two years below grade level in all areas. This kid taught herself to read when she was 3- there was no way, that she ever was going to be below grade level in all measurable areas.
The district also told me that to qualify for the gifted program she needed to be two years above grade level in all areas, she would lose track of where she was at doing her math homework, and do the exact same problem but transposed on the next line and get a different answer- she was not going to be two grades above in all areas.</p>
<p>Is there any wonder we looked for help outside the district?</p>
<p>THe schools we found for my oldest had a large population of students who were "gifted" but also had learning challenges, like ADD, dyslexia, etc.
However because they were comfortable with that dictotomy- the students did very well- they weren't seen as other the way that students with learning challenges are often seen in public schools.</p>
<p>it is 2005- to still have district psychologists unfamilar that students can have gaps in their "gifted ness" blows my mind.</p>
<p>Do we expect Tiger Woods to read Sanskrit? Truman Capote to comprehend quadratic equations? Our president to admit that he is dyslexic when he thinks that is equvalent to saying he isn't intelligent? ( hey- I am not going to go there)
whatever their challenges- traditionally gifted kids IMO have it a heck of a lot easier than the majority of the rest of us. :)</p>
<p>well to bring it back to the topic
college is different than high school :eek:
about 30% of students don't even graduate high school nationally- I would guesstimate ( mini probably knows) that at least 30 % of high school graduates don't attend college. So how many students who are going to be attending college, do you think are probably gifted?
at most if not all colleges, you are going to be able to find a cohort of strong students- that could be considered gifted. Some may have been indentified in school, some may not.
Looking for a school for "gifted" students- is too broad to be much help.</p>
<p>You could say you want a school where "fun goes to die", and where students pride themselves on how hard they work, and you could find yourself at Swarthmore or Uchicago. If you want to work hard, but don't need to be at MIT or Caltech, you might really like Carleton or Smith.
Great programs are also at public univerities like UW or Ann Arbor.
A good friend of my daughters skipped high school altogether and entered teh University of Washington when she was 13. She graduated with a double major in physics and astronomy and minor in Russian ( while my daughter is still in college)- she could have probably attended caltech- but the honors prgram gave her 4 years of merit aid.
Lots of choices out there- and nothing is set in stone- if one path doesn't work out, another opens up.</p>
<p>I came to this party a little late, but it's a topic that is VERY near and dear to my heart. I have both an M.Ed. and a Ph.D. in gifted education which basically means that I spent years and years of graduate school studying gifted kids. After finishing my degrees I chose to go back into the K-12 setting because I love working with gifted kids. (This probably explains why I'm drawn to CC--which I found one day while researching info for a kid--even though I'm single and have no children.)</p>
<p>To address a few questions...first a few have asked what gifted actually is. Unlike disabilities which are ruled with a national law (IDEA), there is no national law for gifted and talented. There is a national research center at the University of Connecticut and a small amount of federal grant money provided within that same law. However, there is not a national definition of gifted. It varies by state with some states mandating gifted education or gifted teacher certification and some not. (This probably explains why different people have had different experiences as we come from all over the country.) MOST states that serve gifted students use a 130 IQ cutoff but also take into account multiple measures when screening. There is certainly a difference between a 160 kid (who is extremely rare) and a 130 kid (who is also rare, but not nearly as rare as a 160). Most kids that I teach fall between about 130-145. </p>
<p>There are MANY books geared towards parents of gifted youth. I'd be happy to make recommendations if anyone is dealing with specific problems as I keep a library of reference books in my classroom for parents of my students.</p>
<p>I also wanted to address the "problems." It is true that gifted kids experience problems just like other kids. However, they may experience problems associated with their intelligence such as perfectionism, self-doubt that they will eventually fail, and their physical and emotional development not being as fast as their intellectual development. Some may struggle socially because they can't find intellectual peers and feel frustrated that no one understands them. Many are more comfortable with adults. That's not to say that all gifted kids are walking messes. The majority of kids I teach are very well adjusted, social, and normal. However, I have taught a few that demonstrated these challenging characteristics so much that it interfered in their lives. These are the ones that need help.</p>
<p>Also, to get back to the original question. This is a personal one for me because it was a decision I had to make. I was in the gifted program growing up and had good test scores, grades, and activities when it came time for college. However, I knew I wanted to be a teacher meaning that I would never make a big salary due to teacher pay in the state where I lived and planned to continue living. I support myself, but I'll never be rich. Therefore, taking on 50-100,000 dollars in student loans did not seem to be a good idea. I applied to some private colleges and even got a couple of merit scholarship offers. A state school offered me so much scholarship money that I would get a refund each semester. A teacher with a degree from Yale makes no more money than a teacher with a degree from XYZ unknown school so I chose the state school where I would graduate with no loans or debt. I still do not regret this decision (and for the record, none of my degrees are from private schools). I feel like I received a good education and was able to find intellectual peers. Sure there were people in some classes who were well on their way to flunking out, but I find that people tend to be attracted to people like them. Therefore, my friends from college (who I am still close with today) were also successful, intelligent people. They made good grades, had high aspirations, and all went on to graduate school. If I had been in another field maybe I would feel differently. I'm sure in business the networking capabilities at a top school are necessary for careers in many big cities. But for some one like myself who had already chosen a career in a low paying field, my state education was a great experience and I feel I gained a lot both academically and in leadership opportunities. I think it varies from student to student.</p>
<p>I'm also coming to the party late, but I'd just like to say as a student that your kids are so incredibly lucky to have parents like you.</p>
<p>For the rest of us, especially those of us who do have those typical gifted problems (perfectionism, self-doubt, etc.), life is not very easy.</p>
<p>I was tested for giftedness in the 2nd grade (after they tried to throw me out for being "emotionally unready for school," and after that having me tested for ADD and coming up negative); I think it was the Weschler scale for children (but I probably spelled that wrong). I averaged somewhere around 150, with my organizational score signifigantly lower. I was a B student, completely ambitionless, a moderately successful musician, and completely isolated because of emotional problems stemming from my absolutely horrible home environment. I acted out a lot through elementary school, and rather then be checked out for some sort of emotional problem, the school put me on a system just to improve the behavior. I've been in therapy since sophomore year of highschool; and only now being diagnosed and treated for the disorders I've had all along but were either masked or excused by the designation of "gifted underachiever." </p>
<p>You have no idea how many times from junior high on I tried to get help through the school and was turned away from all but the most basic of services because my grades were too high.</p>
<p>Obviously, I don't think I'm a normal case, but kids like me do exist, and we do need resources just like any non-gifted kid who has similar problems.</p>
<p>As of now I'm at a small LAC that gave me a lot of merit aid, but bored out of my skull and hating every minute of it. I'm actually working now to get an excellent GPA and transfer somewhere that would be a better fit; this place feels like high school.</p>
<p>(Sorry for the ramble-y soapboxing -- this hit a bit too close to home)</p>
<p>I had actually decided that I would not try to keep this thread going by posting, but I think screenname might find some of these links interesting. Also, I'd like to encourage you to do what it takes to find the right college environment for you -- I think it makes a difference to be with others who share academic interests and learning styles.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.geniusdenied.com/Articles/ArticlePrintable.aspx?rid=12309%5B/url%5D">http://www.geniusdenied.com/Articles/ArticlePrintable.aspx?rid=12309</a> and <a href="http://www.geniusdenied.com/articles/Record.aspx?NavID=13_2&rid=11090%5B/url%5D">http://www.geniusdenied.com/articles/Record.aspx?NavID=13_2&rid=11090</a>.</p>