<p>emeraldkity I just loved your post about your D and it all evening out. Obviously for some people it doesn't even out, that early prediliction for math becomes their life and they go on to contribute to the field. Other early walkers wind up in the Olympics. But yes, since I have kicked the decal fever addiction I agree with you. It don't matter so much where they go to college as I used to think to have a good and contributing life....plus here's always grad school:). And, your D would be proud of you and think you are a cool mom in her heart if she read your posts.</p>
<p>well I just erased the post I just did- because I admitted to the actually age that my Ds were potty trained!
Both of them have late spring birthdays- and I just let them go around with no diapers.
Early potty training isn't what it is cracked up to be anyway- then you are always having to look for a public bathroom that isn't too scary.</p>
<p>Both my Ds are amazingly forgiving of my faults and foibles, since my younger D is only 15- she is kind of in the middle of shining a bright light on all the ways I don't measure up- but she still occasionally talks to me, and even makes me pictures- my oldest has a great sense of humor & acknowledges how far I have come, rather than how far I have yet to go.
Now if I could only master that part ;)</p>
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<p>I have a comment about the implications of some of the posts so far. When someone belittles the concern a parent may express about their child's unusual abilities, that must be similar to what gifted kids experience in the classroom, and what is so frustrating for them. Just because giftedness has some value in our society doesn't mean that the problems that go hand-in-hand are not relevant and troublesome for those experiencing them. The problems are real to those who are experiencing them, and to imply that someone is "worrying on steroids" is insensitive.<</p>
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<p>I'm late in joining this discussion because of some difficulty login on to this site in the last couple of days, but I couldn't agree more with
sjmom's comment here. Highly gifted childrden, or as one particularly sympathetic principal called them once - the severely gifted- often have many problems because of their very giftedness raher than from some emotional fragilty or treatment as "special" from overindulgent parents, and the problems usually assert themselves once they enter school.</p>
<p>Not all teachers like kids who are constantly questioning, constantly challenging and who already have mastered the material the teacher has so painstakingly prepared to teach. Teacher's often find these kids "rude" when all they really want is to learn. Often teacher's expectations of the highly gifted's behavior are much higher than their expectations of the merely gifted, average, or students with diagnosed learning difficulties.
My point is that it's not just the other kids, and from my experience, not mainly the kids, that the HG kids have trouble with, it's the adults as well.
The very early years of school are the hardest for them, but the good news is it gets easier the farther up the grades they climb, and by the time they are in college (or a good high school situation) these kids often hit their stride and have gained the respect of their teachers, as well as their peers.</p>
<p>My feeling is that by the time a HG kid has survived the elementary and junior high and high school experience, college is a piece of cake. Parents do want to find a good match, just as they want to for any of their kids, but it's not all that difficult to find colleges where the "severely gifted" can
grow and thrive. Maybe because I'm in a state with a pretty good public U system, I'm more relaxed about the possibilities for these kids. I think when it comes to finding an appropriate college, a tempermental fit is at least as important as an academic one. Almost every college and university that we might classify as excellent overall would be a good fit for a gifted child academically, as they offer open-ended opportunity and challenge.</p>
<p>FWIW gifted kids can really enjoy open curriculm schools. I experienced earlier school as torture because of all the slogging we were forced to do. The pace was excruciating for me so I tuned out and just read books in my lap for most of elementary school, junior high, & non-AP classes in high school. Finally getting to plug in at the right level, move at the right speed, and study the fascinating topics was sheer joy.</p>
<p>I don't think all "gifted" kids are "intense" or "different" at all. First, what is gifted? IQ wise, a highly gifted child generally has an IQ of 160 plus, so it is not subtle. Other kids, however, can be gifted in ways that are not IQ related, such as music, art, creative writing, etc.
My son has always been mathematically gifted - it has been clear since kindergarten when he was dividing,multiplying. etc. Now as a high school freshman he finds calculus easy - doesn't understand why the seniors are struggling with it. On the other hand, he is easy going, can get lazy, would rather spend his time watching sports than anything! If you met him and didn't start throwing numbers at him you would just think of him as a typical young teen (which he is).
I am writing this because I don't think people should generalize about "gifted" kids. They are all different. Find a school that suits your child. If he/she has great grades and scores, your child will get into a number of great schools. My son - with many years ahead of him before college - says he has no intention of going to a school like MIT - he hopes for a school with great sports like Duke. He is at a very small high school and neither he nor my older child (who is applying to college this year and no, she is not mathematically gifted) would consider a small LAC in the middle of nowhere - it would be too much like where they are now, but it would be perfect for a lot of other kids.</p>
<p>Even moderately "gifted" or above average kids can have a rough time in school because of the boredom. Schools are largely focused on NCLB and trying to get their over all stats up. The enrichment or advanced placement that is available for the more capable kids is minimal.</p>
<p>I think it depends where you go to school. Our public school offers 13 AP courses and there are only about 100 kids per grade, including all skill levels, so if you qualify for APs there is no problem getting in them. You can also take classses for credit at a nearby college if the school doesn't offer the course. So it really, really depends on where your kids are in school to say they are not being challenged.
One thing to know: if you have a truly gifted child many of the top boarding schools will take your child on scholarship, which is an option for gifted kids who are not academically challenged at home. Many day private schools will do the same,although depending on where you live there may or may not be a truly challenging day school. The top schools like Andover and Exeter really want kids who are likely to get into Harvard, Yale, etc. so if you have a kid like that, don't assume your child won't get a scholarhip if he or she needs one.</p>
<p>"they learned to use the toilet at 6 months old, just like those kids in the New York Times article a few weeks ago ;-) That's because they are 6th-standard-deviation on bladder control."</p>
<p>Those parents are ridiculous! What is parenthood without diaper changing memories - on 1 yr olds?</p>
<p>I wonder if there are tutors that specialize in turoting gifted children? Is homeshcool a better option?</p>
<p>We homeschooled our boys for three years. It was wonderful in many ways. A great book is HOMESCHOOLING FOR EXCELLENCE (Warner Books, 1988) by David & Micki Colfax. The Colfax boys ended up at Harvard, I believe.</p>
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<p>For intellecutally gifted kids, one of the greatest things about attending a school full of intellectual peers is BEING NORMAL for the first time. That feeling of "Finally! My people!"</p>
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<p>Ain't that the truth. That kid gets a chance to grow socially that he might never had had before -- because he can experience being himself around a large group of people who understand and accept him. It's the social/emotional benefits of being among other bright kids that really make the college worth the money.</p>
<p>You might want to check out the following website: <a href="http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/we_have_learned.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/we_have_learned.htm</a> </p>
<p>One statement which I found interesting was, "Perfectionism, sensitivity and intensity are three personality traits associated with giftedness. They are derived from the complexity of the child's cognitive and emotional development. According to Dabrowski's theory, these traits are indicative of potential for high moral values in adult life. The brighter the child, the earlier and more profound is his or her concern with moral issues. But this potential usually does not develop in a vacuum. It requires nurturing in a supportive environment."</p>
<p>It's not reasonable to say that all gifted children share any characteristic, but there may be some traits which are commonly found. And I honestly have to say that I can't think of any exceptional kid, whether it's sports, music or academics that could not be described as "intense." They may be quiet, in fact 60% of the gifted may fall into the "introvert" category, but that doesn't mean that they don't use enormous amounts of psychic energy thinking about the subjects that interest them.</p>
<p>This statement in particular answers the question I first posed on this thread.</p>
<p>"Gifted children have better social adjustment in classes with children like themselves; the brighter the child, the lower the child's social self-concept in regular classrooms. Social self-concept improves when children are placed with true peers in special classes." I believe this applies to college, as well as to K-12 education.</p>
<p>If you are interested in learning more about what the research shows, you should follow the link.</p>
<p>I guess what I don't understand is, by the time "kids" are applying to college, they are not really kids. They are young adults. Most end up at colleges with their "peers" since kids are accepted based on grades, scores, etc (okay, I know there are other things too). So then, Yale (my alma mater) should technically be all intense, introverted kids who were not happy in high school unless they were in gifted programs. It just isn't that way. Sure, for some kids it may be, but a lot of kids who go to Ivy League schools (based on grades, not sports, etc) from our high school are very popular kids and always have been. In many ways their personalities make them leaders.
I guess it all depends on how you define gifted - if you are talking about true genius, the kid who plays Mozart at 4, is in college at 11, etc., they most likely are very different. But the kid who is at the top of his class and getting straight 800 boards may just be very bright and go through life more easily than those who are less intelligent or learning disabled. JMHO - doesn't mean that some gifted kids are not intense, etc.</p>
<p>CAtherine:</p>
<p>Even the most selective schools--Ivy League or not--are not full of gifted students. But one huge advantage of college is that students are not expected to proceed in lockstep. Not all freshmen take freshman math, freshman history, freshman English, freshman biology, etc... They can pick and choose among a vast array of courses in the same discipline and thereby find what fits them best. That is why we don't read as much about giftedness as it pertains to college students.
My S took some math enrichment classes with a 10-year old who was doing A levels (the equivalent of the first year of college); I remember the first class she attended, when she was 8. We thought she was hyper. She was certainly very intense. It turned out she was just overjoyed to be doing math at her level-- in a class which consisted of 13 to 18 years olds.</p>
<p><i guess="" it="" all="" depends="" on="" how="" you="" define="" gifted="" -="" if="" are="" talking="" about="" true="" genius,="" the="" kid="" who="" plays="" mozart="" at="" 4,="" is="" in="" college="" 11,="" etc.,="" they="" most="" likely="" very="" different.=""></i></p><i guess="" it="" all="" depends="" on="" how="" you="" define="" gifted="" -="" if="" are="" talking="" about="" true="" genius,="" the="" kid="" who="" plays="" mozart="" at="" 4,="" is="" in="" college="" 11,="" etc.,="" they="" most="" likely="" very="" different.="">
<p>Catherine, I think that's what people are talking about when they refer to the highly or profoundly gifted kids.<br>
I, too, feel that all kids bring gifts into this world. Having taught school for several years, I can attest to that. I also know that there are these special kids at the extreme end of giftedness for whom special accomodations are required, as children. I agree, though, that as young adults, they are ususally quite capable of finding a college that serves them well. This is where they can really take off!</p>
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<p>Right, as these kids get older many of them learn to cope with their own intensity, they develop a "constructed self" which helps mitigate the raw flow of thought, both data in and opinions out.</p>
<p>Catherine, I'm not sufficiently familiar with Yale to address whether it's full of intense, introverted students.... but MIT sure is! Yes, they have athletes there, but one of the most successful longterm sports is fencing, an intense, individual sport.</p>
<p>As I said before, highly intelligent shades into gifted which shades in genius. A lot of it is definitions. I know years ago, an IQ of 125 was considered essential to succeed in any four-year college; these days I don't think you could get an admissions officer to say that IQ had anything to do with it. </p>
<p>Likewise, "gifted" is defined is many different ways--gifted at sports, gifted at music, socially gifted (Bush would be an example of a Yale graduate in this group, for example--his social skills are amazing), etc. Even definitions for "genius" vary. Marilyn vos Savant, for example, calls herself a genius based on her IQ--I find her writing and ideas pedantic and boring, so obviously we have different definitions.</p>
<p>Generally, the word "genius" has been used only for those who create new ideas. Thus, Einstein is a physics genius (who forgot to eat); Joyce is a literary genius; etc. Do geniuses have their own problems? of course. So do we all.</p>
<p>The hoagies website provides a number of statements but does not do a good job of substantiating these statements. They use a measure of intelligence that is overly weighted to verbal abilities. They do recognize the ceiling effects of the Stanford-Binet but then proceed to identify significant differences between various levels of giftedness that are based on differential IQ scores which can be due to the difference of three or four questions on an IQ measure like the Binet or the Wechsler tests. Their accounts of emotional issues associated with giftedness fly in the face of the data accumulated by Stanley, again without much substantiation. It just is not very convincing stuff from a scientific viewpoint.
On another tack I don't think it is insensitive to raise the issue that having a gifted child does not necessitate a great deal of hand wringing by a parent. We all need reality testing from time to time especially when it comes to our children.</p>
<p>I DO think it is harder to raise "gifted" children. . .they are a gift but also a challenge. My IQ is about 135 and my four children are smarter than I am. </p>
<p>D1 is graduating this year. In second grade, she was tested for California's GATE program (Gifted and Talented Education). Maxed the IQ test out at 150, I was told she was the first person to ever max out the test. When I told the principal that school itself needed to be more challenging, was told back that it wasn't his job to challenge her, and that I needed to involved her with more after-school activities. . .sigh. We are now at the level of deciding which colleges for her to go to --a reach with probably no merit aid, or a safety/match with financial aid. She learns differently and processes things differently. Is a joy to parent, but it has been challenging to keep her challenged as well. Today, I find out that my daughter has enlisted an attorney to "encourage" the principal and administrators of her high school to allow the Christian club on campus ( of which she is president) to have a rally with outside speakers on Nov 3rd -- would another less gifted child have done that, probably not. . .sigh again.</p>
<p>d2 has IQ of 130, not as bright as her older sister, but still taking pre calc this year in her soph year. She's also involved in advanced choir and dance. I remember that d2 was told for a reading assignment in 7th grade that everyone had to read and do a report on a book "at their level"-- so she was told to read a fiction book geared for 11th graders (do you realize how few fiction books there are at that reading level?). . .she started reading "Last of the Mohicians, and complained (rightly) that it wan't fair for her to have to read that big of a boring book and do a report in just the 1 week span that the other students were given to do a sixth or seventh grade level book . I had to put my foot down and tell the teacher that unless D was going to get 11th grade credit that she was going to read and do a report on an easier book.</p>
<p>d3 also maxed the IQ test at 150. In second grade, when I asked for more challenging homework from her teacher, the teacher just gave D3 double the homework as everyone else (eg instead of 25 math problems a night, she got 50--but they weren't any harder or more challenging). Now in 8th grade, she is taking Algebra ll in the local high school with sophoomores and juniors. 2 years ago, she took algebra l in the 6th grade but was getting a "B" in it (which sounded fine. . . "Most parents would be proud of their kid getting a "b", Mom!" . . .until I found out it was because she was getting a D in homework as she was too bored to do the homework). Near the end of that school year, she wanted to invite 50 people to her 12th birthday party. I told her to get an "A" in algebra and we'd talk about it-- guess what, she got the A!! Last year in seventh grade, same d3 was getting a C- progress grade in Reading because she didn't do the homework. I asked her, how can you get a c-, when you read at the 12th grade level? (Again, because she was bored). It is more challenging to keep her learning and enthused about school.</p>
<p>S also maxed out the IQ test at 150. He is in 6th grade now and we started him this fall in the second half of algebra (we had the choice of putting him in either a year long course of algebra a or algebra b, and so opted for the harder one). It took him just 2 weeks to learn the first half of algebra (6 chapters) which he had never taken previously--he is getting an A in the class.</p>
<p>Am I bragging about my kids, NO -- but it is a constant challenge to make school interesting and fun for them, and to not have them get bored or unmotivated. (To keep them challenged when they were very little, I taught all four of my kids the alphabet at age 2, the sounds of letter at age 3, and how to read at age 4, and they were reading chapter books before they entered kindergarten)</p>
<p>Quite frankly, I think this thread is getting so many responses because there are more parents with similar children like my own here at CC, than I'll ever see at my public school system-- and I would venture to guess at any CCers private school as well. We CCers can be a resource for everyone's children. . .in more ways than just for college.</p>
<p>Another way to think about it: There is as much a difference between a person with an IQ of 70 (Mentally challenged) compared to the person with an average IQ of 100, as there is a difference between a person with an IQ of 100 compared to a person with an IQ of 130 (moderatley gifted). Therefore, just imagine the difference between the person with an IQ of 50 (very mentally challenged) to a person with an "average" IQ of 100 to a person with IQ of 150 (highly gifted/Genius).</p>
<p>I agree that this world does pose a lot of challenges for kids who stray far from the "average," whether because they're well below or well above. Parents will always need to do their best to help strike a balance with & for their kids -- socialization, simulation, and "normal." The balance will tilt one way or another at different times, but we all do the best we can.</p>
<p>Adding to the mix, for the past 5 years, both our kids have also had to live with their chronic illness of fluctuating intensity--which creates the most challenges they have had to face in their lives to date. It is only due to their ability to focus and study independently that they are able to keep up through independent study during their frequent prolonged absences.</p>
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[quote]
"Gifted children have better social adjustment in classes with children like themselves; the brighter the child, the lower the child's social self-concept in regular classrooms. Social self-concept improves when children are placed with true peers in special classes."
[/quote]
I disagree. I was a kid with a stratospheric IQ score and a terrible "social self-concept", even though I was accellerated and tracked with the "gifted" group - the problem was I was the smallest kid; I was socially and physically immature in part because I was the youngest, but despite my high IQ I never figured out that was the reason, I just felt inadequate. </p>
<p>I figured my daughter would by tiny and smart like me, so I kept her in the right grade for her age and put her in swimming at age 3 and gymnastics and dance at age 4 and she ended up confident and socially adept. Also a really strong swimmer, acrobat & dancer. She was offered the opportunity to skip a grade at one point and quite wisely declined. One of the most rewarding ways that she developed a good "self-concept" was that her elementary school also housed special needs kids, and she volunteered to "buddy" with autistic and wheelchair-bound children. </p>
<p>If you want a kid to develop a good "social self-concept", then you have to be proactive and provide the kid with support in developing social skills. You can call a kid "gifted" based on the IQ score, but if the kid is socially awkward, the the kid is not so gifted in at least of the 7 intelligences, and in a sense you need to focus on remediating that weakness in the same way that the parent of the popular and athletic kid who struggles with math goes out and hires a math tutor. You don't hire a popularity tutor, but segregation is not the solution - it's only an avoidance mechanism. (Kid no longer has to deal with social awkardness among less-intelligent children, so we all pretend the problem has gone away.)</p>
<p>I don't think that all gifted kids necessarily have "self-concept" issues -- many are very confident and socially adept and don't need special help or support. I DO think it is a great benefit if the academically gifted have at least some opportunity to meet and work with similar kids, such as through GATE activities or a CTY summer - but I just think it is a very big mistake to fail to recognize the needs the whole child. They are still children and "self-concept" is not merely a matter of intellect.</p>