First...throw out the rankings

Parents Forum
41

<p>Idler's comment, "So you think that not just the ranking lists but the idea that some colleges are better than others is bogus?"</p>

<p>No, in fact quite the opposite. Some colleges clearly offer more potential for success for individual students than do others. Hence, the need to do a lot of homework and make requirements based decisions. For most individuals, the requirements will differ. In the case of a private school, one can expect to pay on order of a $180,000+ over the next four years. It seems to me that kind of investment merits some serious consideration that goes beyond designer labels, platitudes and sloganeering. It also seems that one would want at least a live snapshot of the place where some of the most important formative years are going to be spent.</p>

<p>I agree, a lot of data can be gathered independent of a visit - and should. However, a requirements based decision means gathering data that impacts those requirements. If a student believes average SAT scores will have a significant impact on his or her quality of education and/or life over the next four years, then by all means that should be among the criteria. However, if one believes undergraduate research opportunities and/or the first year program are important, I maintain one needs to go to the source to sort the wheat from the chaff.</p>

<p>The other aspect of the decision process I find disturbing is how, it appears to me, so many have let the conditions of the marketplace be dictated to them. The colleges want their consumers to behave as sellers, and a good percentage of them the now do. The students need to keep in mind they are the consumer; they need to examine prospective schools as buyers, not sellers of themselves. By the time a kid begins the selection process, the record is pretty much complete and he/she has little control over whether they will be accepted (although there's growing industry of people who will take your money if you're convinced otherwise). If that's acknowledged up front and the time available is spent shopping as an informed consumer, I believe the probability of success increases dramatically.</p>

42

<p>Okay, I'll stipulate that the info sessions can start to sound alike and that 80 percent of the info can be extracted from websites and mailings. Imo, you need to think of yourselves as information miners, listening carefully for the other 20 percent, listening to four dumb questions to hear the fifth good one and its answer.</p>

<p>And while it's pot luck and Murphy's stew, you get some sense of what the other prospective students are like.</p>

43

<p>Even the noncommunicative kids might know more than they let on. Mine unbeknownst to me had done research of schools on the internet, something I never thought he would have done. Plus they're exposed to college talk throughout the day in high school, especially when senior year starts, from classmates, teachers. It might not be so scientific but that kind of info from peers can be very important (so and so's brother goes to Whatever U and says it's too hard, the girls are ugly, the guys are dorks, etc).</p>

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<p>Campus visits can totally backfire, let me tell you. My d fancies herself city girl, but I wanted her to at least visit a wonderful LAC in a small town. All the while she's grumbling about "making her visit hicksville", I quietly tolerated her sullen attitude the whole 4 hour trip. We finally arrived at the town, took the exit ramp off the interstate, and the skies opened up in a torrential rainstorm. While we sat at the traffic light at the exit ramp, a homeless man came literally running up to my d's side of the car, thurst his face adorned with matted, long, rain-soaked hair at her, and shouted for money! My gosh, I almost jumped out of my skin and my daughter almost jumped into my lap, absolutely horrified. Needless to say, I've been unable to convince her of the benefits of smaller-town life! Sigh... Must be fate's opinion in my d's college selection process.</p>

45

<p>I must admit I don't quite understand the bit about having to "drag" a kid from school to school. If it is such a chore, or if s/he really doesn't care, why not just go to the state school or where most of her/his friends are going? Or why not take a year off. I mean some kids are really ground down after 13 years of the dreary shower (even if they did well), and the time off could be well spent, emotionally speaking.</p>

<p>My d. found things on her overnights that she just would never have discovered otherwise. The "perfect school" was far too athletic (and alcoholic) for her tastes; most folks' absolute #1 dream school wouldn't even let her meet with the person she wanted to work with, let alone study with him; and another school, upon meeting her, basically constructed a program to meet her needs. </p>

<p>But, yes, the info. sessions all sound the same, and they seemed really made for the parents rather than the students.</p>

46

<p>My D told me from the getgo that she always wanted to go to school in Ca. That seemed to me to definitly not be the most imp factor, so she chose many Ca schools but also colleges, at my prompting all over the west and a few scattered elsewhere. Finaid was a factor so she cast a wide net. When all was said and done and I dragged her all over the country she wanted the best choice she had combining finaid and her favorite campus visit in Ca. I seriously thought she would fall in love with some of these other schools but she knew what she wanted and discounted even many Ca schools with her visit. Leaving visits until we heard about acceptances was a big mistake though because by that point in time she had so much going on in all her activities and AP tests, state meets etc it made life unneccesarily stressful.</p>

47

<p>"I must admit I don't quite understand the bit about having to drag a kid from school to school. If it is such a chore, or if he/she doesn't care, why not go to the state school or where most of his/her friends are going."</p>

<p>If I didn't have one of those kids I'd think the same thing but usually there's more to it. For instance visiting colleges involves early mornings, my S just happens to be one of those people who doesn't wake up till noon. And he can be lazy. Plus hs was boring and draining for him and I guess he didn't understand at the time college would be different. We look back and laugh at it now.</p>

<p>Interestingly, a tough, competitive college is exactly what this kid I dragged through college visits needed, though neither of us knew it at the time (just graduated from CMU computer science). From day one of college he was a different kid. And he tried to never schedule a class before noon and was generally successful. The local state school would have been more of the same as high school and I think he might never have woken up.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
I must admit I don't quite understand the bit about having to "drag" a kid from school to school. If it is such a chore, or if s/he really doesn't care, why not just go to the state school or where most of her/his friends are going?

[/quote]
Some kids are really busy especially during the school year, and depending on where they may live relative to the schools they are interested in, it's not easy to take the time off to make visits. Not to mention, it can be very expensive. In addition, in our district kids are allowed only 2 days of excused absences for college visits. As I mentioned, my kids made out just fine without making a lot of visits. Visits are overrated.</p>

49

<p>Well the obvious alternative is to skip the pre-screening visits, let the kid applies wherever he wants (sight unseen) - and simply do a post-admit, overnight visit at the top choice college which has admitted the student. That worked for my son -- although I admit that the process was somewhat easier because once all the financial aid awards were in, his 2nd remaining choice was the flagship state U, which is local. So he only had to do one post-admit visit - it would have been more difficult if he was somehow trying to decide among several top choices that late. </p>

<p>My son did do 2 other college visists, in spring of senior year - they were overnights (2 consecutive overnights at 2 campuses located out of state, but in the same city). At the time, one campus was his first choice - he was sure he would be admitted, his visit convinced him that it was the right place for him, and he came home very enthused about the college and quite sure that was where he would end up. He was admitted, but given -0- financial aid - so he couldn't go. So what was the net result of the visit? Basically it allowed him to build false hopes. </p>

<p>I don't regret the fact that he visited -- I think it gave him a basis for comparison of 2 other schools when he visited the school he did attend - which had in fact been his 2nd choice all along, though he had never visited. His rationale was something to the extent that he didn't need to see his 2nd choice if choice #1 was o.k. </p>

<p>But I really think it is better if the student visits primarily safety and match schools.</p>

50

<p>Mackinaw, how can you say visits are overrated if they change a student's priorities and where they choose to apply based on visits?</p>

51

<p>TheDad - (Coming to Mackinaw's defense here) -
What if your daughter hadn't visited schools? She probably wouldn't be at Smith now, right? </p>

<p>But she had other good colleges on her list that accepted her. It took some digging - I had to check last year's archives ;) - but I found the "Final Decisions" thread you created last year, and can see that she was also accepted at Wellesley and Barnard. I'll bet that without the opportunity to visit, she would have chosen Barnard.</p>

<p>And I'll bet that if that had happened, your daughter would have just completed an amazing and wonderful year at Barnard. Since hypothetically she would not have visited any campuses, she would have waited until matriculation to discover that Barnard had such high quality ballet instruction. A year living in NY City would have been totally different than a year in Northampton. Not better. Probably not worse. You'll never know - but the likelihood is that in such parallel universe or alternate time line your daughter would have done well and had an array of different and interesting opportunities. There are experiences she could have had at Barnard that cannot be had at Smith simply because the two schools are in different places -- again, not better or worse, just different. </p>

<p>If that had happened, you, too, might be thinking that visits were "overrated". You'd be thinking that everything worked out o.k. After all, when you did visit, your daughter didn't hate Barnard or cross it off her list. On the contrary, it was a tough choice for her, precisely because either school would have been a good choice. </p>

<p>So to answer your question to Mackinaw: how can you say visits are overrated if they change a student's priorities and where they choose to apply based on visits?</p>

<p>A. Because the priorities set by a student who does not visit are equally valid.</p>

<p>I mean - face it - the vast majority of college students simply end up choosing a college based on its proximity to home - either to their local community or by virtue of it being in the same state where they live. Or they go where their parents or older siblings have gone. And most of those kids do just fine.</p>

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<p>My daughter was on the fence between applying early to Williams or Brown--she had visited both. Subsequently, an overnight at Williams resulted in feeling out-of-place; the same expenditure of time at Brown led to such exhilaration as we'd never seen in her about a school. The decision was clear.
That being said, I do find (and have said so on other threads) that visiting schools in early high schools doesn't seem that useful to me because students' ideas about what suits them can change so much as they mature.</p>

53

<p>We visited a lot of schools. We were able to do so because we live in an area with lots of fine colleges, and we are a reasonable drive from many others. </p>

<p>My D did her first college visit to Bryn Mawr on a day during spring break sophomore year when she and a friend had nothing planned. They just made an outing of taking the train a couple of stops to the Bryn Mawr campus and took the tour, then had lunch on campus. Neither was that serious about the school (too close to home, among other things) but they had a lovely time, and it gave them some grounds for comparison when they visited other schools.</p>

<p>I do agree, Calmom, that most kids do fine wherever they go. I am one of them -- never saw my college until the day I started. But some kids are not like most kids. My D is something of a hot house flower and blooms best under certain conditions. (My S is one who would be content just about anywhere he could make friends.) I really believe that for my D, finding a place that fit her well was worth all the visits we made. </p>

<p>Plus, it was fun for me! </p>

<p>And, my S took a liking to one of the schools she didn't care for at all! (Good thing, as he can't go to her school -- Smith. ;))</p>

<p>So while I don't think visits are necessary for everyone, I think they are important, and worthwhile, for some.</p>

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<p>I don't think visits are very worthwhile, but I do think serious exploring, along the lines of what Mini describes, is well worth the effort. We are way on one end of the curve, having visited my d's top 3 choices maybe 4 times each, including attendance at rehearsals and performances, meetings with students and profs, etc.! I thought I would go out of my mind. Maybe I already <em>was</em> out of my mind. ;) But for a student with very specific interests and training, an in-depth visit -- as opposed to a drive-by-and-let's-see-if-the-campus-is-pretty day -- can be invaluable. I wouldn't buy a used car without driving it around the block and on the highway. </p>

<p>We also found that visiting schools that were not necessarily her ultimate choices was very helpful. For example, she had been adamant that she wanted to attend an urban school. Then we happened to be vacationing near Williams and decided to go for a visit. When she heard how much there was to do on campus, she realized that with thousands of other 18-22 year olds around and plenty of resources, you are probably not going to get bored anywhere. Although she still thought Williams was too small to be her top choice, she began to look at non-urban schools as a result of that visit. </p>

<p>No one in our family considered college visits drudgery. We all enjoyed the architecture, the bookstores, scenery, the energy.</p>

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<p>Donemom, your situation was a little different because your daughter was applying ED. So she had to choose one or the other and have as much information as possible. Since ED is a binding commitment, it certainly makes sense to visit. Presumeably the type of kid who is a reluctant college visitor is not a very good candidate for ED in any case.</p>

<p>If it hadn't been an ED situation, your daughter could simply have applied to both. If she was then accepted to both, and still couldn't decide, then another visit would have been in order.... but the reality is that when spring rolls around, the student has a lot more facts in hand that affect the decision. </p>

<p>jyber - as far as the Bryn Mawr visit - I think the concern being expressed here is with visits that require significant travel. It's great that your daughter and her friend visited Bryn Mawr - but I can't count the number of times I've walked around the Stanford or Berkeley campuses with one or both of my kids. I just never considered that a "college visit" because we are local and were always on campus for some event or another. This included following around a tour guide at Berkeley once when we were hosting a student visiting from another country - she wanted to see the campus and take the tour, so we agreed. </p>

<p>Anyway, I'm not arguing that anyone should forego a visit if it convenient and the kid wants to go. I just question whether it is worth the time & money if the kid is disinterested and the visit involves significant travel. On the other hand, it's silly not to visit campuses located within an hours' drive of one's home.</p>

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<p>CalMom, for a number of reasons, Barnard would not have been nearly as good a fit for my D and she is very glad that she's <em>not</em> there. Yes, "on paper," Wellesley and Barnard look very similar, it was visiting that split them apart. But even that misses the main point: before visiting, she was geared to large urban research colleges and was dubious about women's colleges. If you're saying that it would have worked out just as well if she had gone to Columbia or Georgetown, then you're effectively saying that one might as well use a dartboard and where you go really doesn't matter. I don't believe it. If it were so, then the notions of "fit" are illusionary and one might as well succcumb to prestigitis. Feh.</p>

57

<p>I believe that "notions of fit" ARE largely illusory, and that 95 out of 100 applicants will be happy wherever they end up.</p>

<p>In any case, anyone thinking that the "fit" question can be resolved on the basis of a 3-hour campus visit must never have read "The Blind Men and the Elephant."</p>

<p>Most top students, as it turns out, go to the highest-ranked school to which they gain admission. By "highest ranked", I refer to either/or USNews and the Revealed Preference rankings.</p>

58

<p>Byerly - the facts don't substantiate your beliefs. Nationwide freshman retention rates hover around 75%, while 40% of those who begin college don't complete a degree. As for your statement about the rankings and "most" students, I'd love to see a source for your data. Several analyses suggest that financial aid is the most highly correlated variable for predicting college attendance.</p>

59

<p>I will sheepishly admit that college visits can be as much for the parents as for the kid, as someone mentioned above. As the parent of a sometimes reluctant <em>appearing</em> kid, I also feel I can comment on why one might "drag them around."</p>

<p>I think the most important visit is the "genre" visit - see a small LAC, see a contained college/U in a big city, see a college/U with ill defined borders in a big city, see a rural/isolated campus, see a big state U with the rah-rah factor etc. See all of these which kid wants to/should be exposed to and - it doesn't matter one whit whether these are the actual schools under consideration. It is a way of seeing types.</p>

<p>It is also a way for a kid to begin to see himself/herself in a college environment, to help them move into their next life phase lessening the degree to which it is jumping into an abyss.</p>

<p>Fulfilling these purposes needn't involve extensive travel or expense for the vast majority of families.</p>

<p>Now, we could afford to go the next level and fly south and west, as well as drive part of the Eastern seaboard for "specific" college visits. And, we wanted to do it. And, we combined it with visits to friends/vacations. And, S complained about some of it. Complaining can be his modus operandi. </p>

<p>I know in my gut that it was the right thing for him to make these visits. He did not go into it with an ordered list of schools, so it did not re-rank the schools for him. What it did was identify for him,sometimes in a "data analysis" way, but more often in a gut instinct way, the places where he would be comfortable. Some may think the concept of "fit" is overrated. And my S is somewhat of an anomaly, as he is a very adaptable kid, yet he was someone who was not always sure where he "fit" in middle school and high school. </p>

<p>It was also, for our S, a time when he took more and more ownership of the process (some of you don't have this type of problem, but for we who do <em>we know who we are</em> ;)). He would have done so eventually. Bottom line, having made visits to about a dozen and a half schools (some in just a drive-by mode; some the generic "type" visits as a younger kid), and selected the 5 he would make application to, made the process real for him and gave him confidence in his choices.</p>

<p>I will add that perhaps the most important visit of all - for him - was the admitted student "Engineering Scholar Days" after he had made his choice. I know some consider these too much of a dog and pony show. In fact, he did very little of the planned agenda, but he found his comfort there. And (see my opening sentence), I like knowing that he already feels a part of the school.</p>

60

<p>I hasten to emphasize that I believe college visits to be essential; they help the kid to "buy into" whatever choice he makes. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I reiterate my belief, based on all the studies I have seen plus considerable anecdotal evidence, that most kids end up being "happy" with whatever school they enroll in, no matter how much or how little "visiting" they did in advance.</p>

<p>I also reiterate my belief (dramatized by the Revealed Preference study) that most <em>top</em> students choose the "best" (or perceived "best") school to which they gain admission.</p>

<p>Like it or not, the USNews rankings have a profound influence on the way schools are perceived and on the preferences of the top applicants.</p>

<p>(I readily concede that MOST students -if not most TOP students - may enroll at the otherwise acceptable school that is closest to home, and that a huge disparity in financial aid can make a crucial difference in where ANY student enrolls.)</p>