First Time Post - Several Questions - Take Your Pick!

Applying to College
1

Hello all - Parent of a rising junior here. Our family’s first time through the process. We are just beginning to dig into the college admissions process, and I’ve spent some time reading threads in a number of forums here. Thanks for all your contributions to past threads, as we have already learned a lot.

A few questions for picking through and posting on if you have time and interest:

  1. PSAT/SAT/ACT Test Taking: My daughter took the PSAT as a sophomore (school administers it to sophomores as a practice). I guess I had thought progression would be taking PSAT in first half of junior year and SAT and/or ACT in second half of junior year.

In looking at forums and elsewhere, it appears that some who do some strategizing about test taking recommend things like taking the ACT/SAT as many as three times total - twice as a junior (fall/winter and spring) and once as a senior (early fall).

I’m not sure yet what approach our family, and most importantly, my D, are going to take on all this in terms of seeking to maximize test scores (and I respect and understand those who do adopt a score maximization approach in seeking admission).

That said, for those that are seeking to take tests multiple times to improve scores, is there any sort of convention in terms of number of tests and sequence of tests? PSAT and multiple ACTs and/or multiple SATs scare me a bit on top of her present desire to pursue an IB Diploma, which seems like a time-consuming and stressful commitment unto its own.

  1. SAT Subject Tests: I've read that while certainly not ironclad, the SAT subject tests are a bit better tailored to AP curriculums. Some threads here on CC say IB students should consider not taking SAT subject tests. Is no SAT subject tests a common approach for IB students or will some school absolutely require subject tests for admissions apps?
  2. Musical Instrument: My D plays violin and has for many years as part of a Suzuki program. Done some neat stuff in terms of performing, and is also in a statewide orchestra. Nothing alone that would move her from "average excellent" as that term seems to be used here on CC (understand a debatable term, but gives some shorthand assessment I hope).

She is just starting to consider what types of schools she’d like to apply to, but seems to lean small LACs.

The years of playing violin have meaning for her, and I think will appropriately be part of her identity as an applicant. Maybe not a fully-formed and precise question, and I imagine it can be answered by digging into specific schools she may be interested in, but I wonder if playing a violin is the sort of thing a AO would look at in “forming a freshman class” if the applicant wasn’t going to actually pursue a music degree? At the small LACs, maybe she could play in a college orchestra despite not being a Fine Arts major and that would be viewed as a plus?

Not trying to build it up into anything earth-shattering, just wondering where that might kind of leave things in the event my D says, “I’ve liked playing, but don’t see it as a major/minor.”

  1. "Supersizing": A term I saw here for the first time and had to look up. Makes sense applicants want to maximize their score with schools who "supersize." The approach may also depressurize a little the results of any one test-sitting, which is nice. It also seems like a way for colleges to kind of artificially pump up the average SAT admissions scores of their admittees for marketing purposes, but so it goes.

Anyway, editorializing aside, is supersizing something of a norm now where students basically plan on taking multiple SATs to mix-and-match?

  1. Weighted GPAs: Our high school does not weight. My D takes the most rigorous courses available. How do colleges compare unweighted GPAs that have underlying strength of rigor as against weighted GPAs (which as I understand it factor in rigor to the GPA itself)?

I hope at least one of these questions both makes sense and catches someone’s interest, but either way there is a tremendous amount of info in these forums that can be mined through forum searches and otherwise, so thanks again all for previous posts too!

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1 - Do have her study for the PSAT. Many schools have National Merit Scholarships (up to full tuition) for finalists.

2 - Check the school’s web sites. There are maybe a couple of dozen that require SAT IIs.
3 - Don’t worry about it. If she likes to do it great. Some schools may be looking for violinists but most don’t look at that. Music is a good EC
4 - You mean Superscoring. I think most schools do it. Some even do it for the ACT.
5 - Colleges do all kinds of things for GPA. Some will just use the school’s GPA while eye-balling the rigor. Some will compute their own GPA based on taking out some classes. If they receive a weighted GPA from a school that doesn’t supply an UW, they will recompute it.

3

Thanks much for the reply! Helpful advice on all fronts, and I appreciate the supportive tone throughout. Just starting out and trying to get not too freaked out but plan ahead a bit at the same time. And my mistake on “supersizing” would have led to endless images of McDonald’s french fries upon every search, so thanks for that too. :slight_smile:

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Yes, 11th grade PSAT is the qualifier for National Merit. Here is a list of scholarships to try for:
http://nmfscholarships.yolasite.com/

With respect to SAT/ACT scheduling, it can be useful to take one of each in the spring of 11th grade, so that scores are available over the summer to begin assessing which colleges are realistic to apply to. That also gives the chance to retry whichever was initially higher in the fall of 12th grade if it is desired to try to raise it.

SAT subject tests cover regular high school level material, not advanced material like AP or IB HL tests. Note that some AP courses are not well matched to the SAT subject tests (physics in particular). It would be best to check if any colleges of interest require SAT subject tests; if so, it may be best to take them at the end of 11th grade as the student is completing the associated course.

Regarding weighted GPAs, many colleges recalculate their own version of weighted GPA, or holistically look at the academic record, although some colleges use the GPA reported by the high school.

As the parent, your biggest task is to make the financial plan and check on college costs to make sure that you do not have to disappoint her in April of 12th grade by telling her that the colleges she got into are unaffordable. College web sites have net price calculators; you may want to try them on a range of colleges (in-state flagship, local in-state public, various out-of-state publics, privates of varying selectivity, and especially any colleges that may be safety candidates). If there are significant cost constraints, then be sure to inform her before she starts making her application list. If need-based financial aid will not be sufficient to afford colleges, then she needs to make a merit-scholarship-seeking application list.

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Thanks very much! More helpful advice, and I’m actually going to dig into the SAT/ACT sub-forum now to educate myself better in that arena in follow-up to what you wrote. If anyone is reading now and has a quick answer to this: is a student required to report all SAT and/or ACT scores they receive, or can you take it multiple times and just report the highest (with school not knowing it may have taken three times to get that score, if it matters)?

The financial piece is great advice too. I did a very preliminary fin aid calculator thing online that was supposed to thumbnail mirror the FAFSA, and I think we came out at something like $35K/year expended parental contribution. I still have to dig in and see what that means in terms of affordability, combining our actual ability - separate and apart from the calculator - to write a check each year with appetite for loans I guess. Complicated, and have not dug in quite yet.

Thanks so much!

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This is called “score choice”, and some colleges allow it, while others want applicants to report all scores (at least of a given test).

Remember that the expected family contribution (EFC) from the FAFSA calculation is for federal aid only; colleges may calculate their own EFCs differently, and student contribution and unmet need will add to the net price.

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Excellent, thanks ucbalumnus for the kind replies, and adding “score choice” to my vocabulary and “forum search” list. And financial stuff will be the next big topic I look at - makes great sense. Much appreciated!!!

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IB parent here. D took HL math and chem and SAT subject tests early senior year, scored 750+. S took HL Math and Bio, 760+ on subject tests.

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Can’t answer all questions at the moment…but for the (old) PSAT, I got 175/240 in fall of sophomore year and 176/240 in the fall of junior year. Then I got 1930 on the SAT in spring of junior year and 2060 (improved on all sections) in the fall of senior year. I don’t think that big of a jump is common though.

And yes, I believe schools do take into account what each individual school does. They’ll understand if she doesn’t have things that her high school doesn’t offer, and they should be able to see how rigorous her score is in relation to what she could have.

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  1. I was in a very similar situation regarding music. I played the viola for a long time and got to the state level towards the end of high school. I do believe excelling in music is a strong ec and something that could potentially standout to an admissions committee. It is also something to talk about in personal statements and interviews. I received an audition based scholarship under the requirement that I minored in music. I knew that I did not want to major in music, but decided to go along with the idea of a music minor. Halfway through my freshman year I dropped the minor and consequently lost part of the scholarship. I would recommend your daughter stick with the violin and try playing in a college orchestra for a little bit to get a feel for the music department at the school she chooses. Some schools will give scholarships to students who are non-music majors/minors. Some music departments might see your daughter as a future asset to their orchestra, which could help with admissions/scholarships.
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In regards to the music background, I attended a small LAC with a relatively small music department. The head of the music department though punched above his weight class when it came to recruiting students. If he heard from a high school student that they were interested in playing in college he would work like a coach to recruit the student. In some cases, he was able to sway the admissions decision to favor a student who would commit to playing for him in college. All of this is to say, if you are considering small LACs I would recommend having your daughter reach out to their music department and express her interest in playing for them, turn them into an advocate for your D.

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“IB parent here. D took HL math and chem and SAT subject tests early senior year, scored 750+. S took HL Math and Bio, 760+ on subject tests.”

Thanks svlab very much. My D is signed up for IB HL Math, which scares the socks off of me but good for her. I thought I was still “good” at math even in a non-math career until I looked at what is in high school curriculums these days. Whew. Kudos to the kids who might read this for all the impressive work you do inside and outside the classroom.

On ACT/SAT/SAT subject tests, in reading up on the SAT/ACT forums some last night, looks like lots advise kids to try a practice. timed ACT and a practice, timed SAT and see which suits them better, then concentrate on that. Maybe she’ll be interested in trying that and if ACT is what she prefers to concentrate on, she can go the subject test route at end of relevant classes as you say, but only if particular schools she is interested in turn out to require two subject tests.

I must say, I feel like I am coming at this late and wish I’d started at least a few months ago. With only a few weeks left before school starts, discussing this all with my D now - PSAT prep, ACT/SAT practice exams, penciling in possible testing dates - seems to become crowded in a bit. Oh well. At least she had the rest of the summer to not think about these things…

Thanks again!

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Philpsych, thanks very much for the help on testing sequence and GPA comparisons. The once junior year and then once again early senior year sounds sensible and balanced, and aligns with another advice post I saw last night on the SAT/ACT forum that I thought, coupled with your reply, laid out a recommended sequence similarly well:

“Have you already prepped for PSAT for this October (if you’re trying to make National Merit)? If not, then get hopping on that with what’s left of this summer. That should put you in good shooting range for the real thing. Then schedule both your SAT & ACT in January and plan to use a good chunk of your Thanksgiving and winter break prepping for your Jan tests. Alternatively, you could schedule your SAT in Dec (after Thanksgiving break) and your ACT in Jan (after your winter break). Then based on whichever test you liked/scored higher on, focus extra effort on that one and take it again – possibly in June after AP exams are over – unless you need to take your SAT Subject Tests then.”

From your comment and that post, this makes sense to me if it makes sense to my D: PSAT prep now, PSAT, either ACT and SAT once in junior year (or just one or the other if D takes practice exams of both and has a strong preference), and then either ACT or SAT a second time in fall of senior year.

Thank you Philpsych, and the best on your future endeavors.

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Brewmaster10 and Fummer13, thanks to you too for the very helpful and encouraging posts. The fact you shared your specific admission and college experiences with so much detail made them especially helpful, and I appreciate you taking time to share them. Without knowing my D’s path yet, it nonetheless makes me excited for her that she could consider things like you’ve done - playing in a college orchestra, exploring a minor in music even if decides ultimately not right for her - in connection with deciding on a good college fit. I am glad admissions don’t necessarily see playing an instrument as kind of “all of nothing” in terms of what a non-music major might still contribute to a campus. Thanks for the insight and assurance on that, it helps a lot. All the very best to you both.

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One thing that I’ve learned over the time I’ve spent on CC is to consider how much you can afford for college before you think about what college your child can attend. Thinking seriously now about debt and net price calculators, in-state vs OOS schools, that will help a lot moving forward.

Things that I’ve learned here include:

  • Many state schools consider scores as more important than do many private schools.
  • OOS public schools are not worth it unless you're willing to pay for the OOS tuition.They don't tend to offer a lot of aid to OOS students, unless your child qualifies for one of the schools with automatic tuition benefits, like University of Alabama.
  • For merit aid, I seem to think from reading posts, aim toward schools where your child will be in the top 1/3 of their applicant pool.
  • Be sure to count into your figures costs of things like transportation to and from the school, fees that might be less visible, like some schools' quoted tuition is for not quite a full load of classes. If you want to take more classes, the tuition price goes up. Or, the graduation rate might be low at a school because of overcrowding of required classes. You would need to figure in an extra year or two of tuition for your child. Or you may be able to land a position in an Honors program that gives priority registration.

There are probably other FA and cost pointers and there is a great FA section on CC.

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Thanks Dustyfeathers for the help! I just started down the path of looking at expected contributions using the net price calculators for a few schools. Neat tool, even while the results are kind of depressing in terms of what they expect us to contribute.

Our family has some more info gathering, soul searching, and dialoguing to do from what these calculators tell us. I used net price calculators for an Ivy, a small LAC, an OOS flagship, and our in-state flagship, and the in-state is about half of the others in terms of what they expect from us (the Ivy and OOS flagship expect about the same, the small LAC somewhat less but still substantially more than in-state would cost). Our D really wants to leave the nest and go OOS, which I know is a dilemma shared by many, many parents and families in terms of costs.

We also have a rising 8th grade boy, so doubly troubling is what meeting the expected contributions for OOS schools for our D would do to our savings and thus our ability to provide as much financial support for our son when his time comes.

Very much appreciate the help and distilling of the key questions, and the net price calculators really are a fantastic tool. Lots to think about. Thanks.

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Thank you MurphyBrown for lending a helpful hand. After reading your note, I emailed my D’s guidance counselor to ask him to get us set up on Naviance. He’s probably away for the next week or two before coming back later this month, but I look forward to getting into the Naviance system and digging around as you suggested. Waiting to lock in any sort of schedule and working backwards from the list she is making of schools of interest to figure out score choice schools, SAT subject test requirements, etc. also makes great sense.

Thanks for the help and for allowing me to benefit from what you’ve learned already in helping you children. Much appreciated.

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Note that some of the Ivy League schools and highly selective LACs have exceptionally good need-based financial aid, so you may want to run net price calculators on a selection of somewhat less selective private schools to avoid the possibility of a nasty financial aid surprise at other schools if you assume that the financial aid from an Ivy League school or highly selective LAC is representative of what private schools offer.

Also, if the out-of-state flagship you tried is in VA, NC, or possibly MI, its financial aid is probably significantly better than that of other out-of-state flagships. However, some out-of-state flagships may have significantly lower list prices than others, or private schools.

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ucbalumnus and MurphyBrown, this is awesome stuff and gives helpful, specific advice and guidance, thank you! Ironically, I just posted some very basic first FA questions on the FA forum, because I don’t want the moderator to get mad at me for pushing an admissions thread too far toward a FA thread and don’t want people looking for admissions advice here to stumble repeatedly into my woefully misplaced FA discussion (my apologies!). So maybe if you have time and interest you can take a look, as you’ve been terrific (and some of what I asked is already referenced in your latest responses, so thank you for anticipating so well!!)

More generally, it turns out we probably don’t need to do many more NPCs to get the most dire of EFCs. Further digging into particular schools awaits my D finishing an initial list, and then there are miles to go before we know what her test scores, GPA after this year, etc. will mean for reaches, matches, safeties, etc. And then using those categories of schools to figure out where she might be able to squeeze out merit aid, if at all. But at bottom my wife and I are going to be expected to pay consequential amounts up to the full price at some institutions if our D wants to go those institutions and gets in, so our worst case at very expensive schools is 100% and no rose-colored glasses are on. Nor am I complaining - it is what it is, and our family has to figure out what is feasible notwithstanding what the colleges tell us is feasible, what is acceptable as against other values and priorities even after figuring out what is feasible, and what going to any particular school is “worth” in so many tangible and intangible ways.

We’ll do our best, just like many of you are or have. Most of all, I very much appreciate that you are willing to share your knowledge and experiences to help us do our best. Thanks.

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One more tip: when making reach/match/safety estimates, if a given school requires earning a merit scholarship to be affordable, make the reach/match/safety estimate based on the chance of earning the merit scholarship, not just admission, because admission without the scholarship is functionally equivalent to rejection in this case.