Algebra? I don’t think so.
2 Likes
You still have to use words like “Christianity” and “Catholic” to teach these topics.
So why is it so hard to use the words “gay” or “lesbian” if you want to have a classroom discussion about the Stonewall riots? You don’t have to fully teach about the sex aspect, like you don’t have to fully teach about the catechism aspect.
8 Likes
I expect the Stonewall Riots are covered, if at all, in an advanced high school modern history course or maybe AP US history. As such, that would fall under the curriculum exception to the regulation, which permits such topics in an approved curriculum.
Of course, if the majority of high school seniors do not read proficiently, it doesn’t much matter what is in a curriculum anyway.
1 Like
But a discussion of the Crusades may well lead into discussions of the morality behind the Crusades, which may well morph into discussions about the role of religion in government. It’s not impossible to discuss varying viewpoints.
3 Likes
Sure, if Harry calls Tom a homophobic slur during class and the teacher addresses it. Because we can’t talk about sexual orientation, right? SMH.
1 Like
Any slurs/bullying should be addressed, regardless of their origin. They are now. Nothing would change.
Who is going to tell us with a straight face that DeSantis is doing this in order to put the focus back on improving reading and math proficiency, rather than with an agenda regarding gender/sexuality in mind? I mean, if he wasn’t out to favor one group of people over another, then it could have been any random “distraction” that was banned…say discussion of sports, or Pokémon.
8 Likes
Are you really comfortable having kids listen to the "varying viewpoints " expressed by their classmates who are highly devout in certain religions and find LGBTQ issues deeply offensive? Would that exposure benefit the gay kids? If you are welcoming all discussion, that will result too. Or we could just ask students to discuss such issues with their parents or school counselor and leave it out of the classroom. Treat everyone with respect and do not have classroom lessons on this topic.
3 Likes
Actually, yes, I am. Discussions lead to considering others’ points of view. I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
3 Likes
As i recall my kids did multiple projects about their families when in elementary school - student of the week type things, etc.
So what happens when little Liam does a project and talks about/shows a photo of his Dad Jim and Papa Bill ? Kids are going to ask questions. So no one can talk about Liam’s family but we can talk about everyone else’s family?
12 Likes
You just talk about the people in relation to the child. Not their sexuality. So there is Papa Bill and Papa Joe and Brother Tom. Don’t care if Brother is the result of IVF or adopted or whatever.
I agreee DeSantis is likely not motivated by school performance but the rest of us should be. What do you think happens to kids who can’t read proficiently? They are kept out of most well-paying jobs and have pretty poor life prospects. We are enabling an entire permanent underclass. I will support anything that gets the focus on this priority above all others. Frankly, if schools can’t get kids to read properly, nothing else they do matters.
I think this thread is about the ban being extended through 12th grade. High school seniors are 17 and 18. I strongly disagree with making the topics of sexual orientation and gender identity off limits in their classrooms.
Florida English teachers now have to worry that their license will be revoked and career ended if they assign a book with a gay or trans character, or even a character who struggles with gender, such as Scout Finch or Jo March. What about characters who might be gay or bisexual, such as Holden Caulfield, Nick Carraway, Dorian Gray, and Clarissa Dalloway?
Can Latin teachers still discuss Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad? My daughter read Catullus and Sappho in AP Latin (poets who wrote about same-sex love and sex). In fact, an education in Roman culture and history includes same-sex relationships by definition, certainly for students who are years past puberty.
The problems in classes like AP Gov and APUSH are obvious. In addition, teachers could be sanctioned for teaching the women’s rights movements, as that certainly involves gender identity. Could APUS classes document the expanding (and sometimes contracting) sphere of influence for women in America history? I often get the feeling that some legislators would like to return to the days when a woman had no place in the public sphere, and certainly not in politics. My daughter wrote a paper about Harvey Milk in high school—would that be allowed? Her teacher definitely instructed her about it.
We also live in George Santos’s congressional district. Our kids debated his claims to be both gay and Jewish in APUSH class. In fact, CNN came to our school and recorded a segment about students calling for Santos to resign. If we lived in Florida, would teachers be afraid that a parent would complain? What about the fall of Roe v Wade? How can students debate that without talking about Obergefell? Is Griswold off limits also, or is okay to discuss heterosexual sex, but not gay sex? Technically, Title IX is off limits, along with a discussion of whether Hillary Clinton’s gender played a role in her loss, or the ambiguity of the Biden administration on trans issues and whether that will be a factor in 2024.
Our government should not be restricting speech in high school classrooms to this extent. It’s intrusive and counterproductive. Students are already living and discussing sexual orientation and gender identity every day. Banning those topics in the classroom is infantilizing. It will not stop teens from being interested in gay and trans issues, but it may diminish their interest and respect for their classroom experience. It will certainly create unforeseen negative consequences for teachers, and for students and families who are personally struggling with these issues.
21 Likes
These are two completely separate issues. Figuring out how to address proficiency in reading and math has been a challenge pretty much throughout the history of public schools. The difference in the past few decades is that the stakes are higher for students who lack proficiency.
And the entire debate is nonsensical because nobody is providing evidence that there are lessons being taught about gender identity and sexual orientation. Teachers are not leading classes with ,”Let’s talk about sexual identity as it pertains to our lesson on differential equations.”
What is happening is a greater acceptance of differences. When I started teaching in the early 90’s, no kid was demonized as much as an effeminate boy. And it was teachers as well as students. There are always out.users, it the majority of kids are far more accepting - even my students who come to school with Let’s Go Brandon sweatshirts are very progressive in their views and acceptance of kids who are gay and trans. It’s not because teachers are leading that change, it’s that the world is changing and these kids live in the world. They have access to a whole world of information on their phones.
5 Likes
They do have access to everything on their phones-so why do they need to discuss it in class too? The extremism suggested by this thread reminds me of the extremism on the other side-no one is suggesting banning Little Women, or the parade of horribles that those on either side of these controversial issues feared would flow. Given the state of our public schools, they don’t need more controversy and distractions now.
1 Like
This week 12th grade.
Next week you can be arrested for having these discussions in public.
Scary - but would it surprise you?
2 Likes
Please provide evidence that teachers in Florida are teaching sexual orientation and gender identity.
There’s a big difference between teachers trying to teach it and students having conversations or even bringing it up in the context of a broader discussion.
I will give you an example. As part of the curriculum for a senior English class, they had to practice discursive writing. One of the topics was to examine the effects of “celebrity culture.” That opened the door for students to discuss and write about a variety of topics. This was the lesson when I first even heard of Andrew Tate. Every single kid in my class knew who he was and what he’s about.
6 Likes
I am old enough to remember sadly when similar scare tactics were used against passage of a constitutional amendment protecting against discrimination by sex. IMO, they just undercut the credibility of the argument. Nevertheless, this is close to the line for the politics forum, so I will sign off.
sorry - not trying to go there - but it’s relevant - because we’ve gone from 3rd to to 12th grade…I didn’t realize til the thread was put up.
They’re doing it in college already (b4 the 3rd grade).
So where/when does it stop? Does it go to the workplace?
Not trying to be “political” but it is germane to the thread - I think anyway.
4 Likes
I was what was termed a tomboy. I detested dresses, which I was required to wear - in public school - until society eventually deemed pants acceptable for girls when I was in sixth grade. We had a heck of a time finding a plain white communion dress, because there was no way I wanted to wear a frilly dress. I was teased in elementary school, I was called a lesbian in middle school. Adults called me young man based on my pixie cut and androgynous clothing. How I wish books we read in class had even one story about girls like me, that portrayed us as normal. Or even just pictures of girls like me, so that it could be normalized. As it was, I grew up seriously lacking self confidence, because I always felt “other.” I am not gay, and I have never had any desire to be a boy. Seeing girls who aren’t “typical” would not have made me want to be gay or transgender. But they would have made me feel normal.
One of my grad students, an artist, did a lot of work based on her experience being the only girl in her school in Texas who had parents from India. She was constantly made to feel “other.” Perhaps if books her classmates read had portrayals of kids like her, even just pictures, normalizing being a child of immigrants who ate unusual food at lunch, she might not have been teased.
Perhaps kids of same-sex parents would feel less “other” if their situation was pictured in a book that included pictures of families. Or if books had pictures of boys playing with dolls or sparkly things, perhaps young boys who might (or might not) eventually realize that they are gay might have a happier childhood.
Representation is not a terrible thing.
13 Likes