Florida In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants

Parents Forum
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<p>“In a rational world there is no reason to have a trial. We aren’t even talking about something that has any wiggle room like a ticket for running a red light would have.”</p>

<p>Are you familiar with the law in this area? There is tons of wiggle room written into the regulations. Many cases turn on soft questions like “extreme hardship.” Others require the determination of difficult factual questions like the existence of domestic abuse. When a case is really open and shut, there won’t be much of a trial.</p>

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<p>Yes, I am very, very familiar with this. You are wrong.</p>

<p>That is not wiggle room for whether or not they are subject to deportation.
That is wiggle room for if someone should make an excuse for why they should not be deported.</p>

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<p>Funny. It just came out that the government has released 36k convicted criminal aliens who were awaiting deportation including:
193 homicide convictions
426 sexual assault convictions
303 kidnapping convictions
1,075 aggravated assault convictions
1,160 stolen vehicle convictions
9,187 dangerous drug convictions
16,070 drunk or drugged driving convictions
303 flight escape convictions</p>

<p>source: <a href=“36K criminals freed while awaiting deportation, report says - CBS News”>http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-36k-criminals-freed-while-awaiting-deportation/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Even at that price, it is still a bargain, IF those illegal immigrants can be prevented from re-entering the country. </p>

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<p>“That is wiggle room for if someone should make an excuse for why they should not be deported.”</p>

<p>Well, it’s perfectly reasonable to state that you disagree with the law. But as it is currently on the books, the law allows wiggle room. The law provides for a number of “excuses,” if you prefer to state it that way, and provides a process whereby judges decide whether the excuse applies in a given case. The law says, for example, that citizens of Cuba have an “excuse” to avoid deportation and remain in the U.S. If someone is detained on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant from Colombia, and they assert that they are actually from Cuba, the government has to figure out whether they’re actually Cuban or not.</p>

<p>To use your analogy, if the law says that it’s OK to run red lights if you’ve got a woman giving birth in the car, then you need to have judges decide whether your claim that your wife was in labor is true or false.</p>

<p>Regardless of how the law is written, though, humans make mistakes. Government humans especially. If you’re deporting 400,000 people in a year, as we did in 2012, you’re going to screw up and grab some Puerto Ricans, naturalized citizens, etc. Those detainees need a space to assert the “excuse” that the government grabbed the wrong Juan Rodriguez or Wei Chang. The only way to figure that out is to have a hearing or trial. So I don’t see how a rational system could do without trials, unless it were run by the world’s only errorless humans.</p>

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<p>So, a lot of our so-called deportations these days are actually border turn-a-rounds. Apparently, what’s being counted had been recently revised so some of these govt numbers may be a little shaky. Interior illegal alien catches are pretty rare. No-one seems to be looking for them. Perhaps, if they commit a crime someone notices. But it’s just not on the current agenda.</p>

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<p>You are putting words in my mouth and you are missing the point entirely.
I never said that there is no wiggle room in whether or not someone can get an excuse for not being deported. I said there is no wiggle room as to whether or not they are eligible for deportation. I didn’t say I disagree with law, I said I understand it.</p>

<p>Of course the law allows for an exception to be made. Heck, a judge can decide that if you are right handed or left handed, they will grant you an exemption. In the link I provided, you can be a convicted murderer or convicted of sexual assault or kidnapping and still manage to get a lawyer or judge to hold off on deporting you…bonus, you can even be released. That is exactly the problem. </p>

<p>But to say there is wiggle room as to whether or not people can be deported, no. That is the point.</p>

<p>As you pointed out, just the holding for deportations is $2B a year, so add in the lawyers who argue cases for people, there is a ton of money in this so I am not surprised that there are people who try and get some judge to grant an exemption (under the law) for the hardship that the person has a hangnail and their country of origin has no good manicurists.</p>

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<p>That shows that you don’t understand the point. What does that have to do with anything? Are you now claiming the law states that you can’t be deported if you have a hardship? No. No. No. </p>

<p>The law says that you get a ticket for running the red light. You can make a 100 different excuses about why you did and you may find a soft-headed judge to give you a pass. But that does not mean that you are legally entitled to any wiggle room based on how the law is written.</p>

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<p>BTW, let me try one other angle on this.</p>

<p>If an illegal immigrant fits your description of “extreme hardship” and maybe even has a hangnail and a bad case of dandruff, is there any law that would require that the person not be deported? It is straightforward.</p>

<p>Now of course, they can be granted a reprieve if a judge is in a good mood that day, but by the same token, a judge may decide to deport a balding, quadriplegic, 90 year-old former prisoner of war.</p>

<p>Don’t confuse guilt with the consequences of that guilt.</p>

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<p>I don’t care if they are children or adults. The are ILLEGAL. Out they should go and anyone that did not take due diligence and hired them, out they go too. Those who really protest this can contribute to a fund to reimburse our government for those costs and then work on getting these folks make in legally instead of foisting the costs and responsibiities on all of us who do not want to take part in this charade. </p>

<p>There are a lot of special interest groups wanting them here and it’s for humanitarian reasons either. They’d have been thrown out a long time ago, if it weren’t for that. It’s not out of the goodness of our hearts, they are here. They are benefitting a lot of Americans with cheap ready labor which is at the expense of those jobs demanding the pay they should and conditions as well. You can rent out a cheap tumble down house and just keep a blind eye to the fact that there are a dozen of them living there, just collect the rent, as they will are unlikely to cause trouble . Hire them as help without the benefits and precautions we have for Americans. Then let the masses of US citizens pick up the tab for medical expenses, education , all the thing to give them the bare essentials and more of living here. The guy in his truck who picks up a load of them, like dirt in the back of his truck from the pick up site down the road from me sure isn’t paying for the cost of those illegals being here and their families. He’s happy to pay them in cash for the work they;ll do. To get the same with US citizens, it would cost him a lot more. You try competing with these guys in the same business legitimately. But I’m paying for the cost of those illegals and their families that need any number of things, and they also get in in state college tuition. </p>

<p>There’s a post in the fin aid section of this board–kid gets in with state tuition at state flag ship due to these rules for children of illegals. parents not even in the country, and he’s crying with an EFC of zero, the schools is giving him zip other than federal entitlements (PELL, Direct Loan). It’s created a whole new category of kids able to get in state tuition. Because you can’t say, if your parents are here illegally, the law is xyz, they have to phrase it in a way that includes other situations. The school is tight about the whole matter and simply not giving out money to the student. Let the feds pay what they have to , such cases by state law now have to give in state tuition rates, and these kids are screaming “we want more”. Not fair we don’t get more. We are EFC zero, we need more paid. </p>

<p>They would get deported a lot more quickly except the ACLU and other groups have given this particular group, these illegals, special benefit and fight the cases pro bono when they get caught for other crimes. Let your kid or a legal citizen without the funds get into the same trouble but be here legally, and they don’t get that aid. It’s really a stupid situation where special benefits and aid are given BECAUSE they are illegally here. So the authorities, in my town and other towns, throw up their hands and turn a blind eye to these doing, some of them criminal. Those illegals that are being released are back in our midst, not to mention many who just disappear when the courts let them out for a trial date and they don’t show up. My friend who is an interpreter for the courts loves it when there is an appearance for an illegal. She gets paid for doing nothing as they don’ t show up most of the time and she gets paid for just showing up rounded up to the next hour. They are undocumented so when they disappear, finding them is more expensive than dropping the whole case. </p>

<p>When you live in the midst of all of this, you see this happening, and not in inconsequential numbers</p>

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8 U.S.C. § 1229b(b)</p>

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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-texas-austin/1631849-strange-residency-conditions.html”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-texas-austin/1631849-strange-residency-conditions.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Above is the link to a post which describes the kid crying about his finaid package for UT-Austin. His Mexican parents didn’t give his godmother in Texas guardianship. He got in-state tuition, and is now crying that he didn’t get more aid. </p>

<p>Also, it’s really disgusting that convicted felon illegals have been released. </p>

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<p>The student in the thread you link says that he is a U.S. citizen. </p>

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<p>The student in the thread is a US citizen but his parents are in Mexico. Due to a lot of the Dream Act type laws, in many states if the student is graduating from an in state high school and can prove he is instate for three years (or whatever period of time) he get in state tution, baby. Whether he is legally in the country, legally in the state, whatever. I’ll bet you that the parents in that thread were NOT paying the public high school district the costs that are nearly always on the table when parents do NOT live in a school district and a kid attends. I told you that my brother paid whopping amount to have his niece stay with his family for a year and go to a US public school. The illegals…they don’t pay a dime. Some ship their kid to a relative, and they don’t pay a dime. This kid in that thread was staying with someone in TX, going to a TX public school, not likely to be paying tuiton while parents are in Mexico. He , yes, is a US citizen and for all I know, so are his parents, though they live in Mexico. EFC of zero; he’s a citizen so he gets full PELL, allowed to get the DIrect loans, but missed deadlines for UT fin aid and they initially did not even give in state tuition. He had to appeal and go through a “loophole” as he said to get it. Whether he is entitled to TX state aid for low income, I don’t know. But he’s trying to get more money as the instate rates are still not enough for him to go there. The federal amounts cover the tuition, but he’s looking for money to pay his room, board, living expenses, books, supplies, whatever as well. </p>

<p>So this is what these stupid rules that are intended for illegals to get state rates come down to, along with looking the other way for those who really have no business going to school with parents gone out of district even, let alone out of state out of country. You can see how it spreads and costs more and more. I see it here too. </p>

<p>A lot of the kids affected by these rules are not illegal themselves, by the way. They are often born here and as a result are entitled to citizen privileges. But their parents are not. So there are areas that they cannot get certain monies such as some state aid that require that the parents pay state taxes and they check on this. Some schools get strict about this too. They make the deadlines tight for everyone so to meet the budget. This costs ALL of us, </p>

<p>Without that 3 year rule and grad fro a state high school, that kid would likely not get in state tuition rates for TX. As a rule in TX, parent has to live in state for kid to get that in state rate. But now there is that rule. </p>

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<p><a href=“New York Senate rejects 'Dream Act' for illegal immigrant students | Fox News”>http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/18/ny-senate-rejects-immigrant-student-dream-act/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As you can read, NY rejects a measure that would have given illegals access to state funds (TAP). These kids, can get in state rates for NY schools if they’ve been here for three years, get federal aid if they are citizens or have a green card but no state aid But TX, FL and CA will give state money to even those who are here illegally, or if the parents are here illegally, or maybe if the parents aren’t here at all. And state taxpayers get to pay for it. I am GLAD that the NY measure failed, but you know, even with it failing, the way it works here at most SUNYs is if you get in, you get full tuition needs as defined by FAFSA met. So those kids who are citizens can get federal aid and the state school will pitch in what is need up to tuition and fees. So they get the money one way or the other. If the kid get state rates, can’t fill out FAFSA because he is not a citizen and maybe illegally here, I don’t know what the college does in meeting need. I have a feeling they will cough up the money, again, up to tuition and fees. But they are screaming this is not enough.</p>

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<p>“State colleges and universities should not ask for any information regarding your legal status when you submit your application. When applying to a state college or university, you are not required to put a social security number. You can leave the space blank on your application with no effect on your likelihood of acceptance. State schools are not required to report undocumented students to the federal government; however, they are required to report international students with a student visa from a foreign country. Once accepted to a state college or university, make sure you are not mistakenly classified as an international student.”</p>

<p>For NY state higher education. As you can see, if you are here LEGALLY as a foreign student, you have to go through all sorts of hoops. If you are illegally here, you not so much. Also, in NY the rules are even more lax than I thought for instate tuition–it’s 2 years at a NY state high school and really just a year if you take the GED in Ny and apply within five years of getting your high school degree in the state. The proof needed is a lot easier than if you are a legal US citizen coming from OOS seeking instate college rates. Legal immigrants need not bother to apply for instate rates because they are not an option.</p>

<p>This inconsistency and unfairness is outrageous to me. When it is far more beneficial within the law to be illegal than not, it’s makes a mockery of our laws and fools of those who are abiding by them. Yes, if you get away with breaking the laws, you often can benefit, but there is no systematic machine in place to abet this and if you get caught, well, that’s the risk. The way we have things going in a lot of states, the policies are in place to benefit those who are illegal.</p>

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<p>The law creates a system whereby the Attorney General is to exercise discretion. That’s what many of the trials are for. The law could easily be written to impose more bright-line standards. If we have a more bright-line system in the future where the AG has no discretion, you would still need a judicial process to determine whether the government grabbed the right guy, whether he’s actually Cuban, etc. That’s the only point I’m trying to make – that a rational system does need trials. There would just be fewer of them if we did away with discretion. </p>

<p>If you feel that it’s wasteful to hold people in detention as long as we do, when we could have the trials faster and/or let more of them go home with ankle bracelets while they wait, then we are in hearty agreement.</p>

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<p>“The way we have things going in a lot of states, the policies are in place to benefit those who are illegal.” </p>

<p>This is not an accident. As Hanna notes, the AG has discretion and he is using it. Also, If we stopped giving them stuff they would stop coming and we wouldn’t need near as many trials. But, that seems unlikely.</p>

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<p>I don’t understand how it’s possible in this day&age to get by w a phony SSN in the U.S. Why is it that employers acting in good faith and paying FICA to a fake SSN number are not notified by the feds that the number is invalid?</p>

<p>If Fedex can ship and keep track of more than a BILLION different packages in the world per year (over 3 million packages in one day!), then how hard can it be for our lame-O federal agencies to keep track of valid SSNs? This is not rocket science. </p>

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<p>They use real SSNs that belong to other people. </p>

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<p>@bay, doesn’t the worker’s name have to match up w the SSN? </p>

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<p><a href=“Illegal Work Under Fake Social Security Number? Government Still Pays Benefits! | The Senior Citizens League”>http://seniorsleague.org/2013/illegal-work-under-fake-social-security-number-government-still-pays-benefits/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The SSA is not set up to catch them. Identity theft, by the way, is a really serious problem. </p>

<p>What’s really even more ironic is that some bleeding hearts groups are screaming how unfair this is to the poor illegal worker who is paying all this social security and is never going to get the benefits from it. Yes, they are out there. </p>

<p>I live in an area that is rife with illegals. And with businesses making a lot of money from them as well as individuals benefitting from them. After my neighbor got estimates for what it would cost to get his yard regrades, he decided to just get the prep work done professionally and then hired a “foremen” who had some idea what to do, then picked up a bunch of illegals down the road waiting for work pickup and had them do it He bragged and crowed at how much money he saved. Those guys had no SSNs. They work for cash. I don’t think they made ten bucks an hour for the work, but they did pocket it all. The guys who work on a lot of the crew jobs don’t even see $8 an hour as they do have SS and other things taken out of their paychecks if these companies are being run legiitmately at least from an accounting stand point. What SSN are used, whether those guys are legally here is a whole other story. Same with nursing aides, cleaning staff, baby sitters. Quite an underground industry we have here. The thing that gets me is that a lot of the rules that come out to supposedly protect, end up as even more enticements to bring more illegals here. Some who would have left their families in the old country, will bring them here when they see programs that make it attractive to do so–helping them find low income housing, registered in the schools without the paperwork the rest of us have to have, getting “welfare” type benefits and charity. And these programs are so proud they are doing this. </p>