<p>cncrdparent: I swore to myself I’d stay off Smith’s boards since I have never and will never had a child attend. One is a guy and the other chose Barnard. (She did consider and apply to Smith and was accepted, and I think would have attended had Barnard not accepted her too.</p>
<p>Certainly opinions can vary and Smith isn’t for everyone. </p>
<p>What I find difficult about your posts is not that you have an opinion but that you seem so convinced that your opinion has more validity than those folks with much more familiarity with the school.</p>
<p>Perhaps if you’d leave a little room for the idea that you may have gotten a someone mistaken impression, you’d find more acceptance of your thoughts.</p>
<p>A good case in point is the discussion of retention rates. You chose to interpret them one way, whereas as mini demonstrates, there may be an entirely different reason for the statistic. This may be the case for many of your impressions.</p>
<p>After a certain point, we see what we want to see. And yes, that does go for our enthusiasms as well as our bugaboos.</p>
<p>Thank you, MythMom, for your thoughtful observations. You are welcome to participate on this forum anytime you see fit; it doesn’t matter if you don’t have a horse in the race.</p>
<p>To me, it is difficult to put spin on Smith’s low retention rate. Another statistic from US new and World Report is the relatively low giving rate of alumni of Smith. If one compares its giving rate to colleges with much higher rates, but ranked much lower, it reveals that alumni were so happy with their undergraduate experience at colleges ranked below Smith that they give back to their beloved college. Could it be that students who attend Smith, by the time they graduate, have not had a positive enough experience to want to give back to the college later? Hmmmm, I wonder if this factor should also be considered before sending in your admission deposit by Monday. The big problem I have with the rabidly defensive advocates of Smith on this forum is their overly judgmental attitude of anyone who disagrees with them. The chastisement of Beatrice in Shakespeare’s Much Ado About Nothing is apropos for TheDad and SmithieandProud: </p>
<pre><code> So turns she every man the wrong side out,
And never gives to truth and virtue that
Which simpleness and merit purchaseth
</code></pre>
<p>I find it hard to believe that this forum allows individuals who post thousands of nasty comments about new posters to shut them up can remain on this forum with impunity.</p>
<p>If I remember correctly, all the single-gender schools have a slightly higher transfer rate, in part because some students feel that they need a co-ed living environment. But as Mini points out, there are other factors that contribute; lower income and first-generation students, both of which Smith actively tries to enroll, may drop out for financial reasons or to transfer to a school closer to home. Also, Ada students may find it difficult to continue (I don’t know this for a fact, though) because they often have family obligations as well.</p>
<p>Here’s something else to consider: Smith is a small school, so even a modest number of students leaving will affect the percentage. I looked at a chart of Smith’s first year retention rate, and it varied widely from year to year. The graph looked like jack-o-lantern teeth. </p>
<p>I saw that USNWR lists Smith as having a 78% four-year graduation rate. That seemed low to me, given that in 2010 I seem to remember 635 women graduating. (Please correct me if you have more accurate numbers.) The low number may be a result of a class or two that lost a lot of students.</p>
<p>Still, whatever the causes of lower four-year graduation rates and first-year retention, I think the administration could, and should, do better.</p>
<p>Cncrdparent, we can quibble about whether two campus visits, conversations w/ profs and students, etc. constitute a “snippet…” In the end, however, it is up to you to decide whether or the extent to which you wish to use the experiences of others - - whose values and expectations may be quite diff than yours - - to supplement your obserbations. </p>
<p>In that regard, I respectfully disagree w/ mythmom. I have no problem w/ your being “convinced that your opinion has more validity than those folks with much more familiarity with the school.” You are making a decision for your D; your family’s values, preferences, sensibilities are the prisim through which you which you view the world and those values/prefs/sensibilities, observations and opinions should, therefore, rule the day - - for you. </p>
<p>Other posters encountering the same events have walked away with a different opinion. Other prospect families have had different experiences than you and your D. Current students/parents and alumnae have more varied experiecne upon which to draw and having spent more than a few days on campus, will likely have a different perspective (or can provide more/diff context) than even the most diligent prospect. But that doesn’t make their experience any more valid for you. </p>
<p>My experience w/ Smith is similar to that of the other posters here. I have, however, posted on other boards where any number of these kindred spirits have insisted that my unflattering observations were abberant and dismissed my concerns unfounded. I am always uncomfortable when postes insist that their experience is the one true experience (one view to rule them all . . . ), but the hysteria that punctuates your posts does not advance your position.</p>
<p>Sorry, cncrdparent, I could turn the same statement to you.</p>
<p>Your observations and concerns are pertinent to you and your daughter. Smith was not the right choice for her. But you are also judging people for disagreeing with <em>your</em> assessment. They have as much right to post a counterargument to your observations as you did to start this thread. You’ve had students, alumnae, and parents state that openly gay couples do indeed count among Smithies but that they are not a majority. You’ve had the same people talk about after-Smith successes. All these things you’ve discounted because you’re sure that for some reason people are supporting Smith without the right information. You saw two women lying prone on Chapin Law. Your daughter said that six women were talking about sexual techniques in the dining room. Eight students out of 2800 students on campus exhibited behavior that you found “hard to stomach.” Did you notice what the other students were doing/saying? Did you attend an orchestra performance? Take a tour of Ford Hall and its high-tech laboratories? Did you hang out with the women watching classic movies in the living room of their house? Did you stop to ask students what they liked and disliked about Smith? </p>
<p>I get that you hated Smith, and I get that it riles you that people on the Smith forum (surprise!) love it. We aren’t blind supporters. We have seen the results.</p>
<p>We are not blind supporters, but we do see things differently than OP. I can’t say that witnessing a single event on campus involving only a handful of students would not be enough for me to have had SERIOUS misgivings about a school - - regardless of other people’s experiences. The sight of two women making out on Chapin lawn bothered OP and her D. And yes, her D will likely see more women making out at Smith than on other campuses, and life at Smith could be a constant on her D’s senses. The piercings, the binding, the girls making out doesn’t bother me - - or these things are offset by the racial/econ diversity and all the other wonderful things about Smith that, for me, are too numeroud to list.</p>
<p>As TD posted earlier, it’s the Fox News tone that bothers me. And now the nit-picking about retention rate and alumnae giving . . . . </p>
<p>(Agree w/ mini about Pell recipients and retention; I also wonder about the giving rate at all women’s colleges.)</p>
<p>You know, there’s something that has been bothering me about this thread, and I’ve finally pinpointed it: it’s the implication that somehow the presence of lesbians on campus has ruined the academic environment and reputation of the college. As though those students were not as bright as the heterosexuals. Or as deserving. Or as “good.” As though their sexual orientation defines completely who they are.</p>
<p>RE: graduation rates, I have only an old US News to look at, but it shows the 2005 graduation rate was 86%. Whereas their predicted rate, based on financial and entrance stats metrics that US News has found to correlate with graduation rates generally, was 83%. So based on their analysis, Smith was actually graduating students at higher rates than underlying factors would have predicted, +3 for Smith. In that year, anyway, that’s all I have here.</p>
<p>I know now that I am receiving personal messages from silent readers that many readers may be afraid to post their thoughts on this forum for fear of being attacked by overly zealous Smith supporters. The moderator who has apparent control over the content of this forum is now inaccurately reading all prior posts (with a permanent lesbian prism glued to her eyes) as somehow attacking students at Smith based on their sexual orientation. I repeat, there were issues regarding immaturity and what was observed in classes that impacted my daughter’s impressions of Smith. The negatives taken away from the Northampton downtown area also had nothing to do with sexual orientation. It appears that even the moderator of this forum is seeking to divert attention away from candid observations made by my daughter and myself. Please allow open discussion and let everyone express their opinions. Thank you.</p>
<p>cncrdparent-why are you still on this board? You’re just being a jerk and it’s downright silly!</p>
<p>No one is making you ever go back to Smith again, so leave it be. You said your peace, and anyone interested can read your thoughts. You’re just being irritating at this point</p>
<p>As momwaiting… said “You know, there’s something that has been bothering me about this thread, and I’ve finally pinpointed it: it’s the implication that somehow the presence of lesbians on campus has ruined the academic environment and reputation of the college. As though those students were not as bright as the heterosexuals. Or as deserving. Or as “good.” As though their sexual orientation defines completely who they are.”</p>
<p>I totally agree with her and rocket–why is the op still posting?? I think op must get off on these ridiculous rants that they are posting!! And all the attention.</p>
<p>RE; retention rate;; according to FAFSA it’s 91%. That was on our SAR. Do you believe everything that USNWR says???</p>
<p>And as I’ve said before–read critiques of profs at other schools—there are many disappointing and just bad profs out there. Look at the amount of heterosexual sex and sex abuse on other campuses–it’s probably worse than Smith, especially violence against women and date rape. Oh and BTW I’ve read that only about 17% of Smith’s students are gay.</p>
<p>I am sure that there are schools that you do like, cncrdparent. Find a school that you do like and focus your energy on where you DO want to encourage your daughter to apply. </p>
<p>There are schools that I don’t like as well, and for a variety of reasons were dropped from our radar. </p>
<p>I reiterate my request that this thread be locked. It has degenerated into a platform for a person with an agenda that involves little more than putting down Smith College and those that attend it. The moderators have allowed this to go on too long. It is no longer if it ever was a discussion of opposing viewpoints. I repeat, NO MAS!</p>
<p>“Oh and BTW I’ve read that only about 17% of Smith’s students are gay.”</p>
<p>Fewer (under 13%) if you believe the only survey that has been done. Which perhaps is too bad, because I would hope for all lesbian students to find as welcoming a place as Smith. (Not that non-lesbian women shouldn’t have a fine place to go as well.)</p>
<p>This thread has become quite interesting. It occurs to me that it is reproducing (not just talking about) an aspect of the experience (my limited experience, anyway) of being at Smith. I noticed an intense, though subtle, edginess in the social climate there. Not quite a chip on the shoulder, but a potential to take umbrage in the face of perceived insult. Not unlike certain parts of New York City. The solution? Relax and allow your body language to contribute positively to the atmosphere. You will find that the ice will break if you break it. Rearing back and making a stand out of your opposition to the environment only precipitates negativity, eliciting its manifested form. Yes, cncrndparent, your experience was real. I am sorry it was like that for you. Smith is still a great school, but, as the common wisdom tells us, is not for everybody.</p>
<p>OP, I don’t think you have to abandon this or other Smith threads to post only on the boards of schools that you and D found more appealing - - so long as you have something productive to contrib here. But I just re-read your two initial posts, and each contains more references to sexual orientation than your post #212 suggests. </p>
<p>If you don’t want all of your comments about Smith viewed thru “a premanent lesbian prism,” then why keep dredging up lesbianism? The discussion had moved on to retention rates and alumnae giving - - then you couldn’t resist responding to two very brief posts about homophobia. So, having re-introduced the topic, don’t be surprised by or complain about addit related posts concerning lesbianism/homophobia.</p>
<hr>
<p>“cncrndparent, your experience was real”</p>
<p>Agreed, but I just can’t shake the feeling that OP is trying to convince that her experience is “the” real experience or more real/valid than the experience of other posters.</p>
<p>My D felt overwhelmed when she arrived, and has gone on to explore, make friends, concentrate on her major field of study, and become completely comfortable with this “edginess” of the place. Smith asserts that its mission is to educate women–many different types of women–and offers its students a foundation of solidarity on that basis. This is what it is, what it does. It’s referred to as “the Smith bubble”, but it’s very much aware of the larger world. Placing women in first place is still a radical thing to do, and the resonances of this can feel like a challenge or an insult, especially if you actually do object to how they are using their freedom. My D has dealt with the experience by using Smith’s resources to further her own academic and personal goals. And Smith absolutely supports this kind of endeavor, which makes it a serious, respectable school.</p>