It seems like most of the engineering schools that require the SAT Subject tests say they will want a Science (usually chem or physics) and Math Level 2. Is there ever a reason for daughter to take the SAT Math level 1 or should she just skip it and wait until she is ready with enough Calc to take the level 2? Seems like it is just a waste of time to bother taking the Math level 1, since they don’t want it anyway. thanks!
I think some schools require just one of them. If the schools that she will apply are not asking for SATII Math level1, then she just need to take SATII level2.
Yes. At first I thought she should take the math level 1 since she hasn’t had calculus yet, but I guess there is never really a reason that an engineering school would want the Math Level 1 it seems, especially the more competitive ones.
Good luck to her!
MIT will accept either Math 1 or Math 2. http://mitadmissions.org/apply/freshman/tests
Also, you don’t need calculus for Math 2.
Just Pre-Calculus
Uesmomof2- Interesting that MIT accepts level 1 or 2. Carnegie Mellon & Johns Hopkins told us they want only Math level 2
I thought it was interesting too. I suspect that kids who get into MIT would do very well on either Math 1 or Math 2 and the SAT 2 is just one relatively unimportant part of what they are looking for in applicants.
Yes, I can see how that makes sense I guess!!
I think most engineering schools expect to see Math 2. I would guess MIT expects it as well, even though they include Math 1 on their list. My daughter was told not to bother with Math 1, and she took Math 2 after Pre-Calc.
Math level 1 is for students who are on normal math progression (i.e. completed algebra 1, geometry, and algebra 2 by 11th grade). Math level 2 is for students who are at least a year ahead (i.e. completed precalculus and trigonometry or higher by 11th grade).
A student who has completed precalculus and trigonometry should take math level 2 and not bother with math level 1.
Engineering applicants are commonly a year ahead in math, so many of them can take math level 2 instead of math level 1. This is especially the case for applicants to the more selective colleges that want SAT subject tests. However, math level 1 is accepted since some applicants are not a year ahead of the normal math progression, and most engineering majors are doable by students who are not a year ahead (i.e. will start in calculus 1 in the first semester in college).
Her HS sequence is algebra 9, geometry 10, algebra II & trig 11, and then calculus in 12th for the strongest math students (others can opt for the pre-calc instead). So, although she is extremely strong in math she’ll only have a little calc under her belt and will have basically ‘skipped’ pre-calc. May have to see if she needs a pre-calc review course to prep I guess?
Calculus is not tested in the SAT subject tests. The difference between math level 1 and 2 is that level 2 tests the precalculus and trigonometry material.
Here are some practice questions:
level 1: https://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation/mathematics-level-1
level 2: https://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation/mathematics-level-2
Ok thank you for info ucbalumnus - I will have to have her look at the links & do more evaluation - it is getting to be a sticking point since, like I said a couple of the schools she has interest in specifically ask only for the level 2 but with no pre-calc (ever) level 1 seems more appropriate to her skill set.
Engineering schools expect Calculus to be taken prior to entry, but also expect SAT Math 2 to be taken as an indicator. Most high school students complete the Calc BC sequence in senior year, too late for consideration by adcoms. Some schools offer Calculus starting in 10th grade, and Multi-variable calculus and differential equations in 12th., and those grades are considered.
Only a few super-selective ones do.
For example, the University of Michigan does not specify that calculus is required for engineering applicants:
http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/college-preparation
Engineering curricula there start with calculus 1 (Math 115):
http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/academics/bulletin/depts/eecs/ee_sample_schedule_14_15_revised.pdf
http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/academics/bulletin/depts/ioe/IOE_SampleSchedule_1415.pdf
http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/academics/bulletin/depts/me/MECHENG_SampleSchedule_20142015.pdf
It can be advantageous to have calculus in high school so that an engineering student can start college in calculus 2 or higher, which would shorten some prerequisite sequences and give more schedule flexibility. But it is not required at the vast majority of colleges that offer engineering majors.
For top engineering schools, the adcoms will expect a student to take calculus if it is available at their high school. They will want to see the applicant follows the most rigorous available math path because it is so critical for engineers, just as they will de-emphasize social studies. It is also true that high school based calculus is usually not equivalent to a college class, I hear frequent complaints from engineering and physics professors about students getting ‘5’ on AP tests but still not understanding theory fully- so much so that they may not accept AP credit for certain programs. It still is better than no calc, and could also lead to an honors class.
As a good example of expectations, Georgia Tech says 94% of admitted students have taken Calculus in HS. Maybe that is self-selection, maybe adcom expectation related, or some combination of both.
You are right about the super-selective schools, Caltech doesn’t even have an intro calc class.
Yes, taking calculus in high school if available to the student is certainly what a prospective engineering major should do, and probably will do anyway. But thinking that a 7th/8th grade math placement decision (into the grade level track that will complete precalculus in 12th grade instead of the one year advanced track that will complete calculus in 12th grade) will forever shut the student out of engineering is inaccurate. It is true that calculus in high school is very common among engineering applicants and matriculants to more selective schools (including the better known public flagships).
Struggling in college math after AP calculus in high school may be related to various factors:
- College courses require more student self-motivation and time management than high school courses. This can be an adjustment problem for many college frosh, regardless of AP credit or placement.
- Many high school AP courses cover material at a slower pace than college courses. Examples include calculus AB, or high schools that take two years to cover calculus AB and BC (the latter makes no sense since the student who can do that are two years advanced, so they must be top students in math). So a student finds the pace of college math courses to be a shock compared to the "college level" AP courses in high school.
- Some students start forgetting material soon after the final exam (or AP exam) is over. Such students likely struggle in any situation where a succeeding course depends on a previous course.
- Some students have a weak algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and precalculus background. They may muddle through AP calculus (perhaps with grade inflation giving them respectable grades in the course) and "pass" the AP exam with a 3, but the weak precalculus background will catch up to them in college math courses.
Some of the same factors may also be why some students who completed precalculus in high school go to college struggle in calculus 1, or take math placement tests and get placed into remedial precalculus courses.
A student with AP calculus credit can make a more informed placement decision by trying the old final exams from the college’s calculus 1 (and 2 for BC credit) courses that the college allows skipping with AP credit.