<p>If this has been posted, please ignore. Public schools only, I think.</p>
<p>U.S</a>. News Releases Best Science and Math High School Rankings - STEM Education (usnews.com)</p>
<p>Of the schools listed as “Open Enrollment” (not quite accurate; you have to live in the school zone at least), is it unsurprising that some of them are in areas heavily populated by computer and engineering professionals (10, 20, 29, 37), or areas with major universities (23, 31)?</p>
<p>I find it really, really hard to believe that Bronx Science isn’t in the top 25.</p>
<p>^^^
I think it’s based on AP tests. I hear that some elite and superior schools don’t foster the “AP culture.” So, like everything else, it depends on the methodology.</p>
<p>My D’s school is on that list and they offer only one AP course in senior year (Calc AB or BC). So the prevalence of AP offerings cannot be that great of a factor in the ranking.</p>
<p>The school argues that all of its classes are at the honors level and they don’t need APs to offer a rigorous curriculum. If students want to take AP exams independently, they may do so.</p>
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<p>I attended Bronx Science’s direct rival and that doesn’t add up. As much as my high school classmates and I like to put Science down for good old rivalry’s sake, their overall curricula is similar to my high school…and we had a good spread of AP courses, regular curriculum courses(a.k.a. “The ■■■■■■ track”), and options to take highly advanced college level courses both in high school and at the local universities(i.e. CUNY, NYU, Columbia, etc). </p>
<p>I have read that US News tended to be biased against public magnet high schools like NYC’s specialized high schools because they felt the admission tests filtered students to the point we were all “so smart we can teach ourselves” so there was “no way to evaluate the educational quality of those institutions”. What a load of sub-prime BS!!!</p>
<p>Here’s the methodology, judge for yourself -</p>
<p>[Methodology:</a> Best High Schools for Math and Science - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2011/09/27/methodology-best-high-schools-for-math-and-science]Methodology:”>http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2011/09/27/methodology-best-high-schools-for-math-and-science)</p>
<p>Sure looks like APs are a factor.</p>
<p>I don’t really care, so I’m not arguing it’s good, bad or indifferent. It’s just a new ranking, which is a subject not exactly anathema around these parts. </p>
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<p>Tests, not classes.</p>
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Okay. I’m just repeating what I’ve read on here. I have no idea whether it is true or not, or whether it applies or not to any particular school.</p>
<p>Montgomery Blair HS is not on the list; it is a county-wide, public, selective STEM program but is a 400 student program within a 2700 student HS, not a separate, full-school specialized program. It wins as much serious hardware as TJ, which has 4x the students.</p>
<p>Re: [Methodology:</a> Best High Schools for Math and Science - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2011/09/27/methodology-best-high-schools-for-math-and-science]Methodology:”>http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2011/09/27/methodology-best-high-schools-for-math-and-science)</p>
<p>The methodology appears flawed, since it appears that AP tests and courses in Statistics, Calculus AB, and Calculus BC are all counted equally as “AP Math” tests and courses, even though they reflect very different levels of math achievement. Similarly, it appears to count AP tests and courses in Physics B and Physics C equally.</p>
<p>Re: courses versus tests in the above methodology</p>
<p>It gives 25% weight to percentage of students taking AP courses, and 75% weight to percentage of students getting a 3 or better in AP tests, within each category of “AP Math” and “AP Science”, which are weighted equally to get the final score.</p>
<p>And if the school teaches post-AP courses…how are those factored in?</p>
<p>Post-AP? Will high schools ever stop the craziness?</p>
<p>If there’s a need, the talent and a critical mass, why not?</p>
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<p>No, otherwise TJ would be #1.</p>
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<p>Presumably, the students taking those courses took AP courses, so that they would be counted already – though taking the post-AP courses would not count for anything additional.</p>
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<p>If the high school really had a lot of high achievers in math, then post calculus BC courses would be needed to give them interested and challenged (better than forcing them to slow-pace one year of calculus over two years as seems to be common). But post calculus BC courses would best be done through a nearby college for real college courses that come with real college credit.</p>
<p>However, other subjects besides math appear to have this phenomenon at much smaller frequency, which is pretty small to begin with in math (though a few high schools like some of the ones listed may have a significant concentration of such students).</p>
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<p>The point of these magnet high schools are to challenge kids who need something beyond AP classes–more rigorous versions of the AP classes, for one, and more advanced classes. My multi-variable calculus class in high school was the equivalent of the MVC for math majors at MIT; it was much harder than MIT’s regular version.</p>
<p>As to whether it is crazy, there is a ton of stuff to learn in college, particularly in the more theoretical fields. It is easier to learn some of it in high school then to cram everything in the 4 years of college.</p>
<p>Depends on the school, depends on the teacher(s). S1 took 13 post-APs at his HS, across several STEM areas. At his school, they finished what AP considers BC Calc in one semester and kept going. MV, Diff Eq, etc. were taught as one semester, college-paced courses. About half the kids in the program took MV/Diff Eq before graduation. AP Stat was calc-based and light years from the standard AP Stat curriculum my other S took at his HS; both got 5s on the AP, but had a vastly different educational experience. The old AP Comp Sci AB was a one-semester course and they covered a lot more than AP. </p>
<p>S had the option to take courses at the flagship, but chose not to, which gave him time to pursue research and other CS interests. This did not hurt him in admissions or in course placement when he arrived at college.</p>
<p>I do like how the ranking system here gives some credit for having 12th graders enrolled in AP STEM courses, but then gives much more credit for having 12th graders achieving at least a 3 on those AP tests. But using this as the only criteria for having a school be the best in STEM? That’s like having a ranking of high schools with the best performing arts program based on how many students are taking AP Music Theory in 12th grade.</p>
<p>I go to the highest ranked open enrollment school on this list. Our STEM program is significantly worse than those at schools like TJ or High Tech, but we are ranked very close to those schools based on AP classes and exams. There are many problems with this.</p>
<p>First, the index doesn’t account for how many AP STEM courses are offered. If a school has an extremely large enrollment and success in AP Statistics, for example, but only offers that AP math course, then it may be ranked above a school that has many AP math offerings but not as many people in them. Our school didn’t have AP Physics C until this year, yet countless other schools offered this course long before us, while we are ranked the 10th best STEM high school. We have zero computer science courses, and the computer science club that my friends and I are starting is having trouble finding an adviser for a computer competition, which should be rare in a school renown for its STEM programs.</p>
<p>Another problem with ranking using APs at the top is that these schools have nontrivial post-AP STEM programs (i.e. multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations), but there is no comparison between those. I am sure, for example, that Stuyvesant’s STEM programs are much better than ours, yet we are ranked higher just because of the sheer number of students that take AP STEM courses, many due to parental pressure. Our post-AP offerings are limited to multivariable calculus and linear algebra (which we only got this year), which are, so far, very computational rather than mathematically rigorous. In contrast, I suspect the same class at TJ or another top magnet school has more theory and is more rigorous. Also, top magnet schools often have college-level/advanced electives such as real analysis, organic chemistry, or computational biology, so they also have more extensive post-AP offerings than us.</p>
<p>Nor does the index account for the rigor of the AP STEM courses at high-performing schools, due to the thresholds for achieving a passing grade on an AP exam. For a high-performing student, it is fairly easy to pass any AP exam, given enough studying. The difference between a 3 and a 5 is not terribly large, either, when you look at how AP tests are graded. When you have students that easily get 5s on the AP Chemistry or the AP Calculus BC exams, then you need to look at factors beyond AP tests (i.e. olympiads and other STEM competitions) to evaluate how schools compare to each other. For example, I felt that the AP Calculus BC and AP Physics B exams weren’t very difficult at all to get a 5 on, and I am a top student in my school, but at a school like TJ, I would probably be merely average (though the different environments may affect how one performs).</p>
<p>So for the top 25 or so (maybe top 50), I wouldn’t trust the order of the rankings here. Many of the higher-ranked schools perform indistinguishably on AP exams, while they can vary greatly on more advanced coursework and preparation for STEM competitions. A more appropriate name for these rankings would be “Schools with the Most STEM AP Course Takers”, though that still wouldn’t be entirely accurate.</p>
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<p>There is a nearby community college that offers these courses, so is it that big a deal to have them at the high school?</p>
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<p>It really depends whether you are talking about an “open enrollment” high school or one that has merit-based admission. For the latter, it is better that they take place at the high school because they can make it a more rigorous class rather than gearing it toward the typical community college student.</p>