Trevor Packer is the senior VP of AP and instruction at the CollegeBoard…
A few minutes ago he tweeted some things that high schoolers like me should really consider.
“After a student takes 6 AP courses total in high school, our research show the college completion rates stay the same for students who take >6 AP courses. So we’re asking college admission offices not to give more than 6 AP courses any extra weight in admissions.”
“I see a real commitment from college admissions offices to “stopping the madness” of too much pressure. The “Turning the Tide” report, signed by many colleges that admit many AP students, is great & encourages a balance of AP/IB with other priorities”
“What about students that simply want more than 1-2 AP courses per year? If students take such a courseload out of a love for learning or a deliberate plan to reduce college costs: GREAT. But students shouldn’t do so from a sense that they must to stand out in college admissions.”
High schools, however, have to share responsibility in stop the madness. The idea that at some high schools a student needs to take 10+ AP’s to get a “Most Demanding” rating is ludicrous.
Anytime someone proposes universals (such as cutting off counting AP classes at 6) for everyone, I become very skeptical. For some kids, taking 10+ is no problem. For other kids taking 3 will be a struggle. The idea of blanket rules/statements that apply in all cases doesn’t really make sense to me. Other than probably from parents whose kids struggle with AP classes.
“So we’re asking college admission offices not to give more than 6 AP courses any extra weight in admissions.”
As IF CB can direct colleges what to do. Afaiac, CB is trying to stay relevant in a world that minds their hold.
Last time I checked, CB barely holds AP teachers to standards. They suggest, they approve a plan, then leave. Nothing says most AP classes are true college level.
And top holistic colleges don’t admit based on number of AP.
I don’t see “we’re asking”, based on research data, to be “direct(ing) colleges what to do”. Or what this has to do with holding teachers to standards.
Do you have a reason to object to the actual request they are making? It seems to make sense to me and, as noted, is already in line with several top schools. Do you think they are wrong also?
Top or tippy top will consider all classes taken, all scores submitted. And scores that should exist but aren’t reported. I can’t imagine how only considering 6-8 would be done.
It can’t be only your top 6 scores, lower scores reflect, too.
My comment on true rigor is based on OP mentioning stacking and thinking wisely.
Remember, CB doesn’t review for admission and is the main reason so many AP exist, in the first place.
So yes, odd they’d “ask” adcoms, when they push so many options.
They should be asking high schools to limit how many they offer.
Sorry, but this is a bunch of empty words. If anything it’s worse this year. Now you have to register for the test by November 15th (or pay a late fee that almost equals 50% of the cost of the exam). Not only have kids not even taken their 1st semester final in the year long courses, they haven’t even stepped foot into the courses that start second semester!
In addition, HSs like my children’s push AP’s so much that they have basically eliminated many Honors level courses for Junior and Senior year. You want to take English 3 Honors or English 4 Honors? Sorry, those doesn’t exist. You choose either regular English 3 or 4 or AP Lang/AP Lit. No Spanish IV Honors or Spanish V Honors - just two Spanish AP courses. No Calculus Honors - just AP AB or BC. This bumps up the number of students who take AP’s tremendously and earns the school a place on the Washington Post’s Most Challenging Schools in America and US News Best High Schools in America. You think the school wants to give those up? No way!
I read an article in the Atlantic that expanded even more on this concept - saying that kids should only take the SAT twice and then find other ways to boost their admission profile.
You know what College Board - that’s an easy fix. If that’s truly how you feel; then only let a kid take it twice. But they won’t do that . . .
Our public high school offers regular Classes, Pre-Ap Classes and AP Classes. There are no honors classes. My average student for his school will take many AP classes (12) because Physics C and Calc BC and Comp Sci are only offered as AP classes. I talked him into dropping English IV AP as he took English III Ap as a junior and is more of a STEM kid. He loves all of the history classes and takes those as AP because he wants the best teachers.
AP classes aren’t the end all be all. But in a big public school, what are the other options? I’m sure some of the elite privates offer very cool seminars with 10 people but that’s not the experience of the vast majority of students.
My 2cents on this is that beyond 6AP classes (equating to 10 college classes when on a semester system) the student really isn’t applying for Freshman admission. They are a sophomore and could very well be a Junior in college standing by the time they show up to campus.
@diegodavis like @txstella our Texas 6A HS offers NO honors courses, only regular, pre-AP and AP. So if you want a higher level course, its AP or bust. My DD will have taken 16 APs by the time she graduates. That’s the way our schools’ curricula are designed. These equate to about 50-60 college credits. Our state universities are required by law to accept APs with scores above a 3… but almost all of the other private colleges she is considering take many fewer of those credits… possibly 12.
She should not be “punished” because the curriculum contains so many APs any more than a student whose school has 0 APs should be punished.
Unless your going to Georgia Tech which seems like the avg student has 12 AP ‘s…lol.
But my question is even if you can take all those AP’ s should they all count for college credit? Some schools allow anything from a 3 or above others only 4/5 count. But at many schools you are bypassing their foundation classes and I think it can backfire on some students. Even though Calc is Calc it is much more in depth in college. Same with physics. When actually talking to University of Michigan about this is they don’t want kids to place out of those two subjects since they know their own classes are way more in depth and a foundation to build on. But of course also their “weed out” courses so kids try to place out.
It just seems to me that some kids come in with so much credits that when they go to the level 2/3 classes that they could actually not be at the same level. Plus then you start paying higher fees earlier for junior year also.
My son’s a bit ahead but due to sequencing for engineering still might not graduate any earlier even though a semester ahead but we have the privileges of paying junior year fees now… Hmmm. Not really an advantage… Hmmm plus we want him to have 4 full years in college. You only do it once but maybe he will coop or intern an extra time then.
The more I read about California’s UC practices the more I respect them. I was previously of the thought process that more AP classes are better until I read through their philosophy on why they primarily look at a max of 6 AP courses in determining the UC capped GPA. The UC schools admit Freshman and Juniors (transfer). They generally do not admit sophomore transfers except in unique situations. So in the case of my son who will have 8 AP classes by the time he graduates HS (and 3 community college classes) he will be exactly in-between what the UC’s are looking to admit. He may be accepted as a freshman and already have sophomore status or he could spend one year after high school at a community college then transfer to the UC as a junior. Even though my son will ‘fall between the cracks’ in this case (punished for taking extra AP classes beyond 6 in terms of freshman admit, and not being able to use the transfer program until junior level status) I’m ok because the UC’s have clearly documented their process and I can respect that.
Except for some math, no way AP in the high school, taught by high school teachers, with little oversight, (and some just teaching to the test,) equates to college work. IMO.
My D’s AP history classes were taught by PhDs. I still say no way that mirrors her college history classes.
Our AP Euro teacher writes and scores the exam and he’s the best teacher I’ve ever seen. Really wants the kids to be excited about the topic and doesn’t teach to the test. Tons on writing and discussing and the textbook he uses is the exact one they use for a Euro history class at UIUC. His class is known as super tough but rewarding. Even many of the best students do take it because it’s a HUGE time commitment. It was worth it for our kids. They loved it and hated it. I dare say this class was way better than some college classes. This teacher sent his kids to NESCACs and went to UVA. He’s brilliant. So, maybe sometimes, an AP class truly is equal.
@homerdog Same goes with my Calculus teacher this year—most years, no one in his class gets an A. The average in the class is a C, but the people who suffer through his class end up getting easy As in college level math courses. He’s a great teacher, but when it comes to tests, he is unforgiving. He taught us so well, however, that the AP test was an absolute breeze and he taught a lot of the BC material after the AB exam so next year will be a breeze as well.
Btw still waiting for AP score; early scores is down right now because everyone is on it -_-
My kid’s teacher in APUSH was also a grader. He built D1’s existing enthusiasm for history, confidence, the thrill of it, for her. (But DH was also a historian.) This great teacher also never made it to the end of the syllabus.
My general point is that you can’t count on an AP being college level, just because CB says it is. Different hs teachers will present AP differently.
Just loading up on AP doesn’t truly mean the equivalent of xx college courses. Colleges may accept many credits, limit, or set standards. But it’s really not the same as saying 10 AP are 10 true college courses, with college peers and college expectations.
@diegodavis
“6AP classes (equating to 10 college classes when on a semester system)”
No, it is the other way around. Calc AB = Calc 1…Calc 1 is a semester where Calc AB is a year long class.
Students who want to take a lot of AP courses and can handle the work should take them. No one should take them for college admissions purposes, however. And while some AP courses may not be as rigorous as their college counterparts, that doesn’t mean they aren’t worth taking. My D took 15 AP courses, 1 IB course, and 3 DE courses. Almost all had the best teachers/profs and were very well taught. She took a wide variety of courses, and they covered almost all gen eds everywhere she applied. Together they provided excellent preparation for college, and allow her to focus only on areas of interest in college. That’s a good thing. I also took a lot of AP courses back in the day and they prepared me extremely well for college and allowed me to graduate with honors from a top 5 LAC in 3 years.
The capped UC GPA includes a max of 8 SEMESTERS (not year long courses) of UC approved honors or AP classes in 10th and 11th grade. For OOS, they only weight AP courses. https://rogerhub.com/gpa-calculator-uc/
@itsgettingreal17 “Almost all had the best teachers/profs and were very well taught.”
DD’s best teachers have been in her AP, DE, and honors classes too. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a link (in high school) between teacher seniority and the level of classes they teach.