Fordham or McGill? And, better to be well-rounded or "spiky"?

College Search & Selection
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<p>I am in a position where I need to start thinking about what my number one is. At this point I have applied to quite a few schools (nine) but I need to start honing in. I haven't heard back from either McGill or Fordham yet, but let's assume I get into both (though, if you are interested, here are my stats, etc. from a previous "chances" thread - <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/what-my-chances/601262-chance-lopsided-student.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/what-my-chances/601262-chance-lopsided-student.html&lt;/a&gt;). The reason I need to start thinking about it is because McGill is cheaper and my family is not in the best situation financially (middle class trap; and my grades are good but not good enough for merit scholarships).</p>

<p>I am a NJ male. I am possibly interested in law in the long-term, but I am still unsure. I am generally good at the humanities. I realize that this is very subjective but I feel like this crowd would have some interesting insight.</p>

<p>Fordham (RH) and McGill are rather disparate, I have to admit, but for some reason I am drawn to them both. Here are the pro/cons of each as I see them.</p>

<p>FORDHAM
In a metro environment (if not quite as exciting as Montreal); a bit close to home for my tastes
Opportunity to dabble in different subjects/"well-rounded" education
Not too small, but small enough to have personal attention, etc.
Not nearly as well-known or prestigious as McGill, but a growing reputation</p>

<p>McGILL
Montreal is an amazing city
Very good academically, but stressful and impersonal from what I hear
Very large
Very good reputation internationally</p>

<p>One more question that I stated in another thread but no one answered:</p>

<p>I've always wondered: is it preferable, from an admissions counselor's point of view, to have someone well-rounded, or, really good in one subject? So jack-of-all-trades/master of none, or specialized scholar?</p>

<p>For example, would you rather see a 2100 SAT with 700s in each category, or a 2100 with two 800s and a 500? Similarly, which is better - all B's or some C's and some A's?</p>

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<p>Okay, I reviewed your stats and thread. Here are my thoughts.</p>

<p>McGill is a phenomenal school and widely known. But prestige does not equal happiness. Always remember that. It is large. Canadian Universities are very different from US universities. They are impersonal and a lot of kids commute in Canada. Montreal is amazing. English is widely spoken. But I have a hard time understanding your interest there. In fact I have a hard time understanding why ANY American wants to go to college in Canada. I see very few benefits of doing that and US employers will think its a bit strange with so many outstanding universities down here. Canadians FLOCK to the US for many reasons, and jobs are one of those reasons.</p>

<p>I am not a big fan of McGill, unless you are majoring in French and International Relations and intend on doing something really esoteric like work for an NGO in French speaking Africa for example. </p>

<p>On the other hand, Fordham is an AWESOME school. Yes its a bit more pricey than McGill, but your travel expenses to Fordham will be ZILCH.</p>

<p>I would NOT count out merit help at Fordham just yet. You are on the bubble for that. Those C’s wont help, but your 800 in CR is a real gem and your 800 writing score is awesome. </p>

<p>My D was in a similar situation as you with a much higher CR than Math score. She applied RD rather late I might add, and wasnt offered merit aid, but was given a generous grant that is about the same as some of the scholarships anyway, and a small music stipend. Unless you are majoring in math, economics or computer science your math score wont hurt you. You can take some easy math class for the core requirement and be done with it. Your CR and writing score will come in handy as you will write a TON of papers at Fordham. Its an academic school, but boy…is it ever fun! Rose Hill is killer…sports, comaraderie, awesome facilities, great profs (a high percentage have Ivy credentials), amazing classes and lots of choices even in the core requirements. My D is very challenged but not overwhelmed. Just the right amount of hard work, exciting classes and freedom for her activities. There are tons of clubs and organizations to join. Fordham kids are really TIGHT. A lot of pride there, young man. </p>

<p>There are a ton of choices for majors as well, some of them really rigorous and some esoteric. You can even major in Irish Studies! </p>

<p>You list overall looked really good and nicely diversified. Its a personal choice where you go.</p>

<p>Tulane, on your list, is also an awesome school I might add. </p>

<p>So that is my perspective and advice. Wait and see what comes in and who offers what financial aid package or merit aid. Get your FAFSA in right away. Do that now. While scholarships are more prestigious than grants, the fact remains its just money they give you to reduce your overall cost of attendance. We all like to be stroked. No harm in that. But if they give you grant money what difference does it make in the end? </p>

<p>Good luck to you and hope to see you at Rose Hill. </p>

<p>Get cracking on your school work. Stay focused.</p>

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<p>FWIW, I’m a US citizen, currently residing in the US, who attended McGill.</p>

<p>nocousin: “But I have a hard time understanding your interest there. In fact I have a hard time understanding why ANY American wants to go to college in Canada. I see very few benefits of doing that and US employers will think its a bit strange with so many outstanding universities down here.”</p>

<p>Out of all the Americans I’ve known who attended McGill, I’ve never heard this reported as a problem.</p>

<p>As another data point, Wall Street is very selective about the university a potential hire attended. They prefer to hire graduates of Ivy League schools and other top-tier schools. Generally, they respect the McGill diploma. Most employers are nowhere near as selective as Wall Street, so it’s unclear why they wouldn’t as well.</p>

<p>Also, even if there are outstanding universities in the USA, not everybody has access to them. Some people are limited by financial considerations. Some students can only afford their in-state publics. But McGill is not usually dramatically more expensive than attending a flagship public. So for students in this category, McGill can be a very appealing option. This is especially true if one’s in-state publics are simply not academically strong, a poor fit, or both.</p>

<p>nocousin: “Yes its a bit more pricey than McGill, but your travel expenses to Fordham will be ZILCH.”</p>

<p>Tuition at Fordham would cost $34,200 US per year for an incoming student. See [Tuition</a> Charges](<a href=“http://www.fordham.edu/tuition__financial_a/undergraduate_studen/tuition_rates__fees_/index.asp]Tuition”>http://www.fordham.edu/tuition__financial_a/undergraduate_studen/tuition_rates__fees_/index.asp)</p>

<p>Tuition and fees at McGill would be about $12,000 US per year for a student from the US. This is at current exchange rates and may vary slightly from faculty to faculty.</p>

<p>nocousin: “Canadians FLOCK to the US for many reasons, and jobs are one of those reasons.”</p>

<p>This is different than flocking to the US to study. Canadians don’t usually go to the USA to attend university. At the undergraduate level at least, the only exceptions I’ve heard of are students who are attending the very best US universities and for whom money is no object.</p>

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<p>Hmm. Interesting discussion.</p>

<p>It’s interesting. here we percieve McGill as the “Harvard of Canada” but it is not -that- difficult to get into and I do not think that Canadians regard it as well as Americans do (or rather, they think it is of par with other institutions like UBC and U of Toronto).</p>

<p>Question: if McGill has such hugh lectures, impersonal bureaucracy, and lack of funding, why does it have such a good academic reputation? I often wonder.</p>

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<p>Take3:</p>

<p>Canadians do come in huge numbers to study in the US and many more would come if they could gain admission. I dont have the stats, but I would venture to say that the number of canadians studying in the US versus Americans going to Canada is about 100-1.</p>

<p>McGill is a fine school with an international reputation. It is a large PUBLIC university with 33,000 students. Going to school in Canada is vastly different than attending school in the US, even compared to a US public flagship. </p>

<p>If someone WANTS to go to McGill, fine. That is their choice.</p>

<p>Fordham enjoys an enormous amount of respect on what was formerly known as WallStreet and has HUGE alumni contacts in the area, with more than 2,000 employers recruiting on campus every year. </p>

<p>To me its apples and oranges. While you may not have heard of any American having trouble finding work in the United States having graduated from McGill, I would venture in a highly competitive marketplace (and slow economy) that there is a considerable amount of bias towards local schools in any given American marketplace. Not saying that is just or righteous, it just is what it is. That being the case, a McGill graduate may have a tougher time finding work. How many alumni does McGill have in the US? Not a huge network I would presume. I think 95% of McGill graduates stay in Canada or return to other foreign countries. </p>

<p>Again, I am not about bashing ANY school. McGill is a fine school and one of the finest in Canada. My own D considered it because of her language skills (which are considerable-she tested off the charts …5 on her AP exam (which is exceptionally difficult in language AP’s) and off the charts on her Fordham language entrance exam). I have been to Montreal many times, the first time in 1967 for Expo 67 (and the first time I ever saw a “russian” at the Exhibit of the USSR). </p>

<p>The OP is from New Jersey and he has a diverse list of colleges and is trying to name his number one choice, which is a wise process. Making such lists is subjective. If he chooses McGill as number 1 and leaves Fordham as number 2, that is fine with me. I just wanted to give him some solid information before he makes that choice. Finances are a problem for some kids, particularly at private colleges. </p>

<p>Picking a college should be about “fit”. That is a mix of academic fit, social fit, geographic fit, economic fit, career choice fit, financial fit, etc. </p>

<p>I just want him to know that Fordham is a fabulous school and a lot of fun, a quintessential New York university while also being a very classic college campus.</p>

<p>Plus they have some really famous alumni, they have filmed a lot of movies there (and are filming presently with Michael Douglas and Susan Sarandon on campus), and some great athletic teams, with Div I-A sports competition. </p>

<p>I wish the OP luck and the very best no matter where he ends up going.</p>

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<p>Any thoughts on the “spiky” or “well-rounded” question? I was just wondering because I personally got 800s in two categories of the SAT and a 590 in the other. Do you think that that is preferable, from an admissions officer’s POV or just in general, to, for example, low 700s across the board?</p>

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<p>Well…as I stated earlier, few…very, very few kids are perfect in all areas…most are either left or right brained kids. My D, in fact, is just like you (similar but not the same scores…but very very close) and math is not her strength…though oddly she excels at Chemistry. LOL. But essentially she is liberal arts/history/theology/philosophy/music kid. She can write a novel in about ten minutes and often submits some very interesting and creative papers that her professors LOVE because she has the guts to take chances and not just regurgitate the common blather. Not to say she submits stuff that is off the reservation. Just another angle or takes a more difficult position to defend and runs with it. </p>

<p>Your combined SAT is fine. I dont think its going to matter. If you math score was below 500 that would be a problem. But its near 600 and that is still an above average score and you arent telling them in the application you want to be a math professor when you grow up. So relax about that. Be proud of your scores and move on.</p>

<p>As for merit aid, you are on the bubble, but its not out of the question. But definitely apply for financial aid through the FAFSA and see what happens. </p>

<p>Your writing strengths will do you well at Fordham as its a school that requires a lot of paper writing in most classes. </p>

<p>The largest class my D had at Fordham had 50 kids. Most are well in the range of 25-30.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>“In fact I have a hard time understanding why ANY American wants to go to college in Canada. I see very few benefits of doing that and US employers will think its a bit strange with so many outstanding universities down here.”</p>

<p>Maybe it’s because McGill among graduate school academic circles is regarded as one of the top research universities in the world with tons of professors that are among the most respected in their field.
Maybe it’s because McGill offers international opportunities unparalleled to most schools.
Maybe because McGill is better than most schools in the United States (including Fordham, hands down)
Maybe because McGill is cheap.
Maybe because alcohol is legal.
–People are fashionable
–City is beautiful
–School is seen as one of the most difficult schools to do well in in North America, and grad schools love McGill students
–McGill’s student body is so diverse</p>

<p>Yes Fordham is a good school, but it doesn’t compete with McGill.</p>

<p>And about impersonal classes, I’ve heard a few people say that if classes were a bit smaller it would be nice, but they all agreed that they love going to McGill.</p>

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<p>Oh, a McGill student who doesnt know Fordham well? Perhaps. Sorry, I wont take the bait on that directly. I dont know what McGill’s grading policy is, so I can’t comment. Fordham has its own version of grade deflation, my friend, believe me. Montreal is beautiful. Its half french. But New York is every bit a world class city unto its own and its silly to attempt to play the game of whose city is better. McGill is better than most schools in the United States? Sorry, that wont fly. Better than Fordham? Don’t be so sure of yourself on that one. Fordham grads do extremely well in the job market, getting into prestigious grad schools and its own law school trumps McGill by a mile. McGill is cheap because its a public school. Fordham is private and Jesuit. (Something McGill doesnt have). Alcohol is cheap and an 18 year old drinking age? Not something I would brag about, frankly. To each his own, however. International opportunities? Fordham and New York are right up there, my friend. And we have the UN, with some prestigious Fordham internships by the way. </p>

<p>Look, McGill is a fine school and if that is what turns you on (particularly if you are Canadian) then fine and good luck to you. I just remarked that there are so many schools in the US (over 2,000) that have their own “prestige” and “heritage” and “opportunities” that I just have a hard time understanding why an American student would choose to go to school in Canada. Again, more Canadians come down to the United States than Americans go up there, by about 100-1. If McGill turns on the OP and he goes there? Great! Its not personal at all.</p>

<p>He asked about Fordham and I am happy to tell him what is happening on campus and what the opportunities are.</p>

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<p>What are thoughts on the University of Toronto?</p>

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<p>Uot is also a great school with a wide reputation. Toronto is a great town-world class in every respect. Friendly people. But UoT is even BIGGER than McGill. It has 58,000 undergraduates. </p>

<p>I suppose the main reason US kids want to attend college in Canada is the relative inexpensive tuition. But dont forget, its in Canadian dollars which is worth more than the US dollar and if our dollar plummets again, your costs will rise. So consider that as well. And I can assure you in the next four years it will, given our financial state of affairs. </p>

<p>I dont do “school bashing.” I simply refuse to do that. I have no time for those who do. I will simply point out some factual differences and tell someone they need to decide what is important to them, where they fit the best and consider all their options and interests. If someone picks a school other than Fordham or one of my other favorites, I say, “good luck” and move on. Its not personal. </p>

<p>To some extent, comparing schools is a fool’s errand, if done from the stand point of “prestige” or USNWR ranking or so forth. Why do some people prefer BMW over Mercedes? Or Lexus over Infinity? Or Toyota over Honda? Or Ford over Chevy? Its a personal decision and for THAT person it is what feels right for them. </p>

<p>You are from New Jersey and perhaps you are looking for something with some “zing” to differentiate yourself from friends, and maybe Fordham feels “too close to home.” That is a factor only you can decide, if that is what is piqueing your curiosity. I wont judge that. My own D turned down PRESTIGIOUS offers in the South (we are southerners) to attend school at Fordham. For her, Fordham offered what she was looking for…part of which was a balance of political views…she did not want a hard left school, or for that matter a lopsided hard right school. She is dressy but didnt want Prep-ville. She didnt want some “finishing school” …but was seeking an intellectual challenge, something with some spice, but not too edgy, and to be away from home. Does she get homesick? You betcha! Her freshman year was an experience in that regard. But she didnt want some huge state flagship school either. She wanted some sports, but not sports crazed school. She wanted opportunity and CHOICES in selecting classes and majors. And she looked REAL HARD at the kind of people walking around…the “This is me!” feeling. And while there was some abrupt and challenging culture shock, she has been accepted easily, made some wonderful friends along the way. She was socializing with her highschool buddies over Thanksgiving. THey all went out to a local ice-cream store and just “girly time”…being goofy and giggly and telling tales and bragging on boyfriends etc…all these other girls stayed in the South except one friend who is at Mount Holyoke. And to a person, while she misses them all and loves them dearly…they are sort of still in that high school bubble…like not growing that much. She on the other hand has grown up a lot at Fordham. Part of that is the fact it is New York and she is learning to be independent in a tough but world class town. (She speaks FLUENT french…amazing, in fact, so McGill was definitely on her radar screen. ) Part of it is because its Fordham…and its special culture and fabulous faculty (a huge percentage of the faculty at Fordham have Ivy League credentials or other prestigious schools like UNC, UVa, Duke, NYU, BU, Stanford). And for us, being able to fly up to New York in about an hour or so was a factor. The drive is not unmanageable…10 hours or so, which is only twice a year.</p>

<p>So you have to decide what it is YOU are looking for in a college experience, what the pluses and minuses are to each school (which itself is somewhat subjective). Fordham is becoming HIGHLY selective (23,000 applications last year for a class of 1,700). Its white hot right now. </p>

<p>But if you want to attend school in Canada and have that unique experience I say, fine. Good luck to you.</p>

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<p>wait, are you serious about the canadian dollar being stronger than the US dollar? The US dollar has been stronger than the Canadian dollar for almost a year now, and you should see it now at about its highest point since then. 1 USD right now= 1.24 Canadian dollars.</p>

<p>Don’t kid yourself about Fordham being a better school than McGill, it’s simply not.</p>

<p>Read all the numbers.</p>

<p>“McGill is better than most schools in the United States? Sorry, that wont fly. Better than Fordham? Don’t be so sure of yourself on that one.”
Any sort of backing to that statement?</p>

<p>Or better, do you think you could find a single university ranking that esteems Fordham above McGill?
Or let me rephrase. I bet you can’t find a single university ranking that even allows Fordham to grace McGill’s page on the rankings.</p>

<p>In fact, I’ve never seen Fordham ranked anywhere but USnews, which btw has a world ranking that places McGill @ #20 in the world and Fordham is nowhere to be found.</p>

<p>Find me one bit of support that argues Fordham is even close to McGill. Find me one bit of support that McGill is not better than most schools in the US.</p>

<p>It won’t happen.</p>

<p>btw, I Montreal is better than NYC, but to say the McGill neighborhood is better than the Bronx is a fair statement according to any New Yorker I know.</p>

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<p>nocousin:</p>

<p>In 2007-2008, there were 29,051 students from Canada studying at United States universities. See [Open</a> Doors: Welcome](<a href=“http://opendoors.iienetwork.org/]Open”>http://opendoors.iienetwork.org/) - the relevant document is found under the “Open Doors 2008 Fast Facts” link.</p>

<p>IIRC, the number of US students attending Canadian universities is in the four figures. (I’m not readily finding a hard statistic that is recent.)</p>

<p>Apparently, there are in fact more Canadian students attending US universities than vice versa, even before you adjust for the US having more than nine times the population. I stand corrected. (Apparently my anecdotal observations weren’t representative.)</p>

<p>In any case, what I said generally might apply less to the OP than some. The OP has a good US-based school, namely Fordham, as an option. I’m guessing from the fact that the OP is seriously considering it that it’s a good fit and that the OP is likely to be admitted and be able to pay for it.</p>

<p>For some students, there aren’t any high-quality US-based options which are feasible. For example, when I wanted to go back to school, my options were limited by finances. Even OOS publics weren’t doable. But in my state of residence at the time, only the flagship school had a strong reputation. Unlike many states, there wasn’t even a solid #2 choice. The problem was that the flagship was an extremely poor fit for me personally. I would have been uncomfortable attending that university. Its reputation and alumni network were also concentrated in that state and surrounding states. This didn’t help me much, as I was strongly interested in relocating.</p>

<p>For me, McGill was the obvious best choice. In my case, even the issue of it being non-local to anywhere I’m authorized to work is a wash. The flagship of my previous state is likewise not local to me nowadays.</p>

<p>There are undoubtedly countless other students who are in the same position of having to choose between in-state publics and McGill (or other Canadian universities) for financial reasons.</p>

<p>I couldn’t agree more that it’s an individual decision. The decision is going to vary greatly from student to student depending on individual goals, individual personalities and the options available.</p>

<p>It may be that some employers would question a US student’s decision to attend a Canadian university. But there were be others who are aware of McGill’s rigorous academics. The question is, are there more of the former or more of the latter? I don’t claim to know the answer.</p>

<p>BIGTWIX:</p>

<p>“Maybe because alcohol is legal.”
“People are fashionable”</p>

<p>If these are a student’s primarily considerations, the student isn’t going to last long at McGill. With the possible exception of freshman year, McGill’s rigorous academics don’t leave much time for partying.</p>

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<p>As an American and Canadian professor,having done my PhD at a top 10 US school, taught numerous years at an Ivy and now at a Canadian university, I have a few thoughts. </p>

<p>The stats are misleading as its unclear from that website what constitutes abroad-- they seem to lump in exchange programs into the mix. In reality, most Canadians go to the public school in their province. Most are pretty similar and generally good value. Very few look to leave far from home, let alone south of the border (and those that do have ties to the US or another country of origin, such as our family). Keep in mind too, few Americans go outside their own country either (to Canada or anywhere else. Also to note, the US has 2474 private and public 4 year colleges, Canada has-very broadly defined- 66. </p>

<p>When you step outside the giant blanket of US-centrism and USNWR, you’ll find McGill, like many non-US schools is ranked very high in the world by other academics in the world (as is U of Toronto). Just because you and your parents do not know it, doesn’t mean its not famous and highly regarded among academics. </p>

<p>[QS</a> Top Universities: Top 100 universities in the THE - QS World University Rankings 2007](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/)</p>

<p>As for difficulty, I am not sure there is validity in that (could be Americans would find any Canadian school to have less grade inflation, but they only have heard of McGill hence it gets that reputation). It’s also known as a place with a lot of parties.</p>

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<p>Oh, I worked in NYC for almost a decade (as a professor). Fordham was NOT regarded highly.</p>

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<p>Good site for Canadian school comparisons (between them and by students themselves):</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.utours.ca/]UTours[/url”>http://www.utours.ca/]UTours[/url</a>]</p>

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<p>The current exchange rate is indeed about what Bigtwix says it is. However, currencies can and do fluctuate against each other. Sometimes, as happened a couple months ago, they move against each other by large amounts in a short period of time. This can blow out one’s budget very quickly. Nocousin is correct that this is a risk factor which a student considering Canadian universities should be prepared for.</p>

<p>I’ll use my own experience as an example. When I was originally considering McGill, the Canadian dollar was about 70 US cents. At the end of my first year, it was up to 80 US cents. Thus, McGill and Montreal were about 15% more expensive just because of the exchange rate. (Fortunately, I saw it coming and transferred money semester by semester. This saved me hundreds of dollars compared to the typical student who transferred money month by month.)</p>

<p>Fortunately, there are ways to hedge against this risk. The obvious one is to convert the entire amount of money required for the entire program to Canadian dollars before committing to attend McGill. This isn’t feasible for most students. Most students are partly funding their education by work, loans or both on a year-by-year basis. There are, at least on paper, more complex strategies involving the currency markets where you could hedge the currency risk involved. I don’t think they’re realistic for the average investor. They might even be infeasible for the individual investor because of transaction costs.</p>

<p>Starbright: Do you know where one could find statistics on how many students are attending universities on the other side of the border, excluding study abroad students and at the undergraduate level only? These numbers might be more relevant here. I suspect that the Canadian students are disproportionately graduate students. If someone can get an assistantship, the fact that US universities are expensive becomes a moot point.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Two reasons why the OP should choose McGill over Fordham:</p>

<p>[list=number]
[<em>]McGill is much cheaper to attend (even more so with the recent fall in the Canadian dollar exchange rate).
[</em>]McGill is far more prestigious, both in the US and overseas.
[/list]</p>

<p>I would pass on McGill to go to HYPSM, but, when it comes to Fordham, it is a no-brainer decision.</p>

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<p>"BIGTWIX:</p>

<p>“Maybe because alcohol is legal.”
“People are fashionable”</p>

<p>If these are a student’s primarily considerations, the student isn’t going to last long at McGill. With the possible exception of freshman year, McGill’s rigorous academics don’t leave much time for partying."</p>

<p>sorry about that. I meant that’s maybe why some americans are attracted to it.
Personally neither of those were a reason for me attending (over Fordham, which was my top choice for about a year) but a lot of people do find that appealing about the school and city.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, yes, some Americans attend McGill for those reasons. Anecdotally, most Americans are at McGill for the academics, relatively low tuition, or other reasons having nothing to do with drinking or fashion.</p>

<p>It’s not as if students under 21 have any difficulty finding alcohol at most US universities…</p>

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