<p>Hi, </p>
<p>I'm wondering who has children involved in formal debate programs, such as policy debate, Lincoln-Douglas debate, or public forum debate. I was in policy debate when I was in high school, but not in college, and my oldest son is just getting into policy debate. What do you think of debate these days for young people in high school or in college? Is debate a big part of your town's interscholastic culture, or not even on the radar screen?</p>
<p>Our school has Mock Trial. The kids seem to enjoy it enormously and do very well in t. It takes up a lot of time, however.</p>
<p>Thanks for mentioning mock trial. I have no idea if it is part of the same national network as debate or not.</p>
<p>My DS2 (a freshman) is trying out L//D, Model UN and Mock Trial. He thinks he'll do two of the three, but is checking out each for size and commitment right now. He is also playing JV football, which occupies immense quantities of time (but that's for another thread). Add to that a selective IB program...</p>
<p>From reading the "chance me" pages, a lot of kids seem to be involved in forensics. My husband did speech & debate at Bx Sci and has stayed in touch with his coach for many, many years since. If DS2 sticks with LD, my husband will probably go back to judging again!</p>
<p>tokenadult~</p>
<p>My oldest son was involved in policy debate for all four of his high school years. He qualified for nationals in his senior year and attended that competition the June after school was out. </p>
<p>My son enjoyed debate tremendously, and though it was not necessarily a huge part of the school culture (much easier to get your pic in the yearbook if you get pregnant or pierce your nose), it is, for whatever reason, a fairly popular undertaking in Kansas as a whole. Our teams usually do respectably at nationals. </p>
<p>To me, the payoffs from debate are too numerous to count. From the poise and confidence you gain from the public speaking to the reasoning and analytical skills, the benefits are truly amazing.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the college my son attends does not do policy debate, but I doubt he'd have had time for it anyway as his bio/chem classes take up a great deal of his time. He does, though, continue to benefit from his marvelous h.s. debate experience. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>I was in policy in debate in high school and it was hugely beneficial and positive experience for me. I learned many presentation skills, began working through my public speaking anxiety, learned incredible amounts about government policy, current events, philosophy, government, etc. etc. It also helped me organize my thoughts and arguments better and more quickly. I started out as a straight math and science academic, but due mostly to the influence of debate, now that I am in college I am looking to be a social sciences or perhaps even philosophy major.</p>
<p>I would like to see some sort of debate/rhetoric training made mandatory for just about everyone, because I feel it makes you a better citizen.</p>
<p>Criticisms of debate: Many people feel policy debate doesn't focus enough on ARTICULATE speaking due to the speed of argument. However, it certainly does promote articulate thought. Also policy debate is a very very liberal activity. The political ideology of your average high school debater or judge would come close to making Howard Dean and Bush indistinguishable. Also, many of the arguments, especially the philsophical ones are incredibly esoteric. Lastly, debate does not have as much of an admissions pull as I feel it should.</p>
<p>All in all, debate was a wonderful experience for me.</p>
<p>My older son did Mock Trial last year in 7th grade, and considered it the most intellectually stimulating part of school. He'll do it again this year. Like you, Phat Albert, he's a math/science kid, but he is very interested in politics and government. I didn't understand your comment about policy debate. I have no experience with it, but how can it be entirely liberal? Don't there have to be two sides? (If you meant Howard Dean to be an example of an extreme liberal, you made a bad choice. If you look at his positions on the issues, and his record as governor of Vermont, he looks like an old-style New England socially progressive Republican.)</p>
<p>Sorry for the bad example, was writing quickly and didn't bother to stop to pick a good example.</p>
<p>As an example from the topic my sophomore year which was marine natural resources. A plan the affirmative team might put out would be to establish more stringent protections of our marine natural resources in some manner, say restricting fishing. In the real world the most prevalent counter argument would probably be about how this might hurt the economy. In a debate round a likely counter argument would be that this policy would inevitably fail because we approach the problem from an anthropocentric viewpoint and then present as an alternative a mass movement to return to nature and renounce technologism.</p>
<p>Mock trial, though is a different beast that I don't know much about.</p>
<p>Thanks for the interesting comments about debate as an activity. "Motor mouth" was just coming into policy debate as I graduated from high school. The team my son debates for has only L-D debate, which I'm glad to see has little tolerance for motor-mouthing to cover the flow. I judged L-D junior varsity rounds in a local tournament this weekend, which is what prompts my question. I THINK that debate is a big activity in Minnesota, but I've never seen it anywhere else, so I don't have a national perspective on debate. </p>
<p>After edit: I opened the thread wrong, by saying my son is in policy debate when he is actually in Lincoln-Douglas. Slip of the keyboard.</p>
<p>Ahh, Yes Lincoln Douglas has very little speed, but in the original post you referred to your son as doing policy, which is usually considered distinct from LD, not encompassing.</p>
<p>Speed of delivery isn't all bad. It forces you to think quickly and allows a lot more ground to be covered. I think it also puts a lot more focus into technical argumentation instead of sweet talk.</p>
<p>My d is in her third year as a policy debater and has benefited immeasurably from this activity, in all the ways mentioned above, and especially in terms of her political awareness. I'm pretty certain she's light-years ahead of most 17 year olds in that department. She even worked on a high profile local political campaign. That interest definitely must have sprung from debate, as it didn't come from me. She and her partner have done very well regionally and also qualified to State last spring. Another side benefit is learning teamwork, at least in policy.</p>
<p>Another plus was that she attended debate camps in the summer twice. They were held on college campuses, which gave her a preview of college life, as well as a chance to meet peers from other areas of the country. Camps and weekends away at tournaments were good practice for being away from home, too.</p>
<p>I don't know how it's perceived by colleges. I thought it was considered as a valuable EC, but the adcom member we met with at UCSD told us it wasn't considered that highly by them, unless you had been successful at state/national levels. I really found that to be a little unfair. All debate coaches and school support for same (finances) are not created equally, and they can have a lot to do with team's success. I think a student can learn just as much without necessarily competing on a national level. I think this particular adcom rep really just showed that she isn't that familiar with what it takes to just do debate, even if only on a regional level.</p>
<p>It is VERY time consuming and has left little time for many other EC's, if one attends many tournaments; plus takes up to 2-3 weeks in summer if they do a camp. Also, at our school parental involvement is strongly encouraged for judging and driving to tournaments.</p>
<p>Quote: "To me, the payoffs from debate are too numerous to count. From the poise and confidence you gain from the public speaking to the reasoning and analytical skills, the benefits are truly amazing."</p>
<p>So completely true, plus the expository writing skills gained from writing clear, logical cases, and the great social experience for kids who get to travel and meet students from all over and in some cases sustaining those relationships.</p>
<p>My son was heavily involved in LD debate on the national circuit all through high school. For him, it was one of the most satisfying and absorbing activities that he participated in...he loved the combination of intellectual analyses and competiton, as well as the opportunity to travel and meet like-minded kids from around the country. He often spent more time on his debate cases than on his homework (much to my chagrin!).</p>
<p>But the payoffs are still incredibly apparent. Just recently, my son won an expository writing award at H., where he proposed a counter-argument to a position taken by the political philosopher, John Sandel, the professor who teaches the popular course "Justice" there. Essentially, my son's piece was just like a debate case, so writing it came naturally to him. So maybe it WAS better that he focused more on debate than on homework!</p>
<p>my( older) daughter wasn't involved but her school was very involved participating in the full range of styles.
One of her classmates did particulary well, I believe he won national award, and now is a producer/reporter for NPR</p>
<p>
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I thought it was considered as a valuable EC, but the adcom member we met with at UCSD told us it wasn't considered that highly by them, unless you had been successful at state/national levels.
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</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing that. I suspect that is true in quite a few activities: what really stands out is not being one of several tens of thousands of participants, but being one of a few national champions (or at least one of a few dozen state champions). By the way, I like your etymological correct use of the term "adcom member," as an "adcom" should be an admissions COMMITTEE, not just one person. </p>
<p>On the time commitment aspect of debate, specifically the Lincoln-Douglas debate my son is in, YES, the time commitment is HUGE. I think my son has a heavier homework schedule than most (three AP courses in ninth grade, with two other courses that are quite advanced) but debate is taking up the lion's share of his time. There is something quite motivational about knowing there will be head-to-head comparison of cases and rebuttals in the coming weekend, so my son is continually doing rewrites and more research with no pushing whatever from me. I guess I figure admissions officers are generally aware that varsity debate is demanding of time as varsity football. </p>
<p>One thing I like about debate is that it accustoms students to thinking about multiple sides of an issue, and I notice in online discussion that that is a skill adults could well develop, in many cases. I hope debaters can influence day-by-day politics in the direction of considering other points of view rather than being hardened in one position for a lifetime.</p>
<p>Tokenadult:</p>
<p>Being able to argue either side of a debate was what the Mock Trial participants in our hs valued the most. They did not know which side of an issue they would be asked to debate, so they had to prepare for both and construct the most persuasive argument possible. It took a lot of research and preparation.</p>
<p>I was a policy debater in high school and for a year in college and in mock trail in law school. I now am a volunteer coach for mock trial, debate and model UN. All of these activities are outstanding, in my biased opinion, and every student should try one - not for the resume but b/c it builds speaking and analytical skills. Every kid gets better regardless of where they start. There are a few things about mock trial that I don't like - in our state it is single elimination so you could work your butt off and get eliminated round one - happens to half of the teams. Also, there is no feedback in our state for participants other than very general team remarks at the end of the round. In debate, the kids pour over their judges' ballots and have an opportunity to work on suggestions the next tournament. As far as debate is concerned, policy is dying in our state. Lincoln Douglas is an excellent alternative - topics are for two months; value based debate; does not promote motor mouth debaters; introduces kids to philosophy. The newest form of debate - Ted Turner or Public Forum - is very popular with the kids in our state - topics change monthly, user friendsly, two person teams, unstructured cross fire. It involves minimal research. Go to <a href="http://www.nflonline.org%5B/url%5D">www.nflonline.org</a> which is the national debate website for more info.</p>
<p>Thanks for the National Forensics League link.</p>
<p>My son did Lincoln Douglas debate in his Sophomore year. It was very time consuming (not just the research and writing, but contests that ran the entire weekend) and did not allow (in my opinion) for much intellectual creativity. It was very structured and formal with specific rules so that one could win without really accomplishing anything. Possibly policy debate would be better because you would be arguing substance, but we have no experience with that format.</p>
<p>BurnThis, I disagree with your notion that LD doesn't allow for intellectual creativity. Having judged debaters who were national champions, I can tell you first hand how creative these kids were...they would come up with multiple, unusual positons and were brilliant in how they could think on their feet in formulating arguments. But usually this ability and intellectual risk taking does not show itself in the novice year when kids are first learning the basics.</p>
<p>BurnThis, in policy debate, for each season there is typically a set of arguments that are most commonly used, a large set mind you, but the amount of material covered is generally not as large as one might think. However new material is always allowed and it really is an evolutionary process. The arguments and argument types that stick around are generally the ones that are most successful, so it really is a very fluid model that allows for change.</p>
<p>I don't know much about LD for comparison though.</p>