Speech and debate

Parents Forum
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<p>My youngest D is an 8th grader at our small public 6 through 12 high school. She's very interested in speech and debate - she took classes for two summers at Stanford, and started her own club at school, which is attracting a growing group of members for biweekly lunchtime debates. Unfortunately, our school doesn't have a program in speech or offer any debate classes aside from Mock Trial. Our new principal is a "test scores" kinda guy, and I know that if I am to have any hope of persuading him to consider offering speech and debate classes, I'd better come in with some pretty strong evidence about their positive effect on test scores, college admissions, etc.</p>

<p>So....anybody know of any resources? Any anecdotes? Any college counselors out there who are willing to weigh in on how their schools regard speech and debate as an EC? Any help would be appreciated.</p>

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<p>Have you been on the NFL website nflonline.org? THere are materials on the website that might help. ALso, when a school joins they send a video which features Oprah, president of NYU, Diane Sawyer, etc. raving about forensics.</p>

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<p>movinmom is right, National Forensic League is where to go. I wish I could offer more than moral support. </p>

<p>Good luck, it's a fantastic tool for learning critical thinking. Can't be beat.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/accidentalhero/parents/college.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pbs.org/accidentalhero/parents/college.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Make sure to click the buttons at the top for more information. </p>

<p>Minh is a nice guy and continues to contribute to high school debate year after year.</p>

<p>And, from the website of an independent school:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.woodward.edu/academics/us/extras/academi_debateteam.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.woodward.edu/academics/us/extras/academi_debateteam.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Quote:"Any college counselors out there who are willing to weigh in on how their schools regard speech and debate as an EC? Any help would be appreciated."</p>

<p>I'm a parent of a former debater, not a college counselor, but I'll weigh in on that question. First let me say that the activity is, as the poster above states, "a fantastic tool for learning critical thinking", as well as a wonderful way to develop writing skills, public speaking skills, to learn to think on your feet, to meet and make friends from across the country, and is generally addictive for certain kinds of kids (mine was one of them). So, from a personal development standpoint, this ec can't be beat.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, despite what debate coaches will tell you, the activity, no matter how successful one is, is not a particular hook that will get you top coleges. I know of multiple top top nationally ranked students who are revered in the debate world, who did not get into their top choice school(s). The most recent anecdote I can relate is the #1 or #2 student in the NATION (who has now won at least a dozen national circuit tournaments and who, as my son's friend, I know personally to be an absolutely brilliant, humble, likeable kid) got deferred ED from Princeton. And there are many other examples of college admission disappointment. So those who think this activity is some kind of ticket to get into elite schools should think again. In fact, I think what can happen is that kids can start to prioritize debate (with its heavy workload and major time/travel commitment) over school work--and that obviously hurts their college admissions chances.</p>

<p>So, bottom line: this activity offers an enormous amount to students who love it. But if they're simply pursuing it as a hook for colleges, they
should look elsewhere.</p>

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<p>I don't think anyone is claiming that being a good debater is going to guarantee you a spot at a particular top college, especially not one at one of the most selective colleges in the nation--certainly not one at a college which happens to have one of the strongest forensics programs and which, as a result, attracts a disproportionate percentage of the top debaters as applicants.</p>

<p>see <a href="http://whigclio.princeton.edu/index.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://whigclio.princeton.edu/index.php&lt;/a>
Seriously, folks, not too many college forensics groups have their own buildings on campus. And the really serious debaters know that there are only a few top schools where you will have a chance to compete in "worlds" without paying your own way, and Princeton is one of them. </p>

<p>A more realistic question is how much debate helps in college admissions when it is compared to other activities which kids with that particular mind set can do and enjoy. And, judged on that basis, I think debaters do very well indeed. </p>

<p>Another question is whether the skills these kids develop help in college and after that. Personally, I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes. </p>

<p>Plus, for the right kids, it's one heck of a lot of fun and it gives a lot of good debaters from high schools where intellectuals aren't all that common a chance to meet other kids that share their interests.</p>

<p>Read literally, donemom's post contains a lot of truth. But, if you go off the deep end for ANY activity and neglect your studies, it can hurt. I guess it's just the 'tone' that kind of bothers me--I've known a lot of debate coaches and I've never known one who claimed debate guaranteed a spot at Princeton.</p>

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<p>look in JSA - Junior Statesman of America.. My son and about 12 others are going to Wash D.C. this weekend with this group.. JSA.org</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your help. I've got lots of research to do!</p>

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<p>Quote: "Read literally, donemom's post contains a lot of truth. But, if you go off the deep end for ANY activity and neglect your studies, it can hurt. I guess it's just the 'tone' that kind of bothers me--I've known a lot of debate coaches and I've never known one who claimed debate guaranteed a spot at Princeton."</p>

<p>First of all, you should ONLY read my (or any other post) literally...the quote above is simply a distortion of what I said. First, let me restate that I think debate is one of the most valuable high school activities, and was the defining experience of my son's high school years. However....
1. Debate coaches do often tell students how valuable this acitivity is specifically for college admissions (I did not say they mention any particular school and the word "guarantee" is ludicrous), and I have come to question that, and I'm not just talking about the ivy league, either.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Specifically because of Princeton's forsensics program, I would have thought they would want the #1 debater in the country who has probably won more national circuit tounaments than just about any student in recent history and who is a top kid at an extremely competitive high school. (he did, by the way, just get a likely letter from Yale).</p></li>
<li><p>I wasn't suggesting that this PARTICULAR student let debate interfere with school work, and I NEVER used such strong language as to imply that students are "going off the deep end" re their studies. I simply said that debate demands a great deal of time, and that I have seen cases where a student sometimes didn't fully prioritize school work over the activity. Another example: a particularly brilliant debater (also super nationally successful) in my daughter's class some years back was thought to be a shoe-in to the ivies--everyone in the debate world knew his name. He was travelling constantly, absent a lot from school. He still managed to be in the top 5 of the class, and had fabulous test scores, but it seemed that the debate committment kept him from fully realizing his academic potential. He did not get into one ivy school. He did attend a top college, but it had been assumed, based on his phenomenal debate success, that he would have many more choices. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>So, what I'm saying is that even the highest level of achievement in this activity does not in any way equate with say, an Intel finalist or an all-state oboist as a so-called "hook" for elite schools. I think one of the reasons may be that the type of debate kids do in high school is a very different format from that on the college level. Thus, many kids ultimately choose not to debate in college even if it was their main h.s. ec. They would often rather continue as judges at the high school tounaments. So, perhaps the colleges realize there isn't that much carry over, so even when students indicate on their aps that they will pursue it in college, the adcoms may know better.</p>

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<p>"HOWEVER, despite what debate coaches will tell you, the activity, no matter how successful one is, is not a particular hook that will get you top coleges. I know of multiple top top nationally ranked students who are revered in the debate world, who did not get into their top choice school(s)." </p>

<p>That's what your wrote. Your example was then a top debater--one you say is first or second in the nation --who didn't get into P'ton ED. (I'm not doubting you. It's just that there are several different kinds of debate and several different leagues, so there are at least a dozen kids a year who can claim to be the first or second debater in the nation, plus the extermpers, etc. ) And, frankly, I think the "likely letter" from Yale proves my point, not yours. This kid may not have gotten into his first choice school, but he certainly got into an excellent college. </p>

<p>IMO, I didn't distort what you said; I think you are CHANGING what you said. You are now using another example of a student who didn't get into any Ivy--which is very different than not getting the college that is your first choice. </p>

<p>Again, I may not be explaining this well, but LOTS of debaters will apply to Princeton. LOTS. So, being good at it--even very good--is less of a hook than being good at something in which the school isn't very good and your application will be more unique. To illustrate, it's much easier for a really good actor to get into Stanford than into Yale, because Stanford gets fewer apps from really good actors than Yale does. </p>

<p>You wrote:
"In fact, I think what can happen is that kids can start to prioritize debate (with its heavy workload and major time/travel commitment) over school work--and that obviously hurts their college admissions chances."
Yes, I paraphrased that as going off the deep end. And again, all I'm saying is that this risk isn't unique to debate. The all-state oboist may neglect his/her studies to practice too. Certainly LOTS of high school actors do. </p>

<p>You now write:
"...even the highest level of achievement in this activity does not in any way equate with say, an Intel finalist or an all-state oboist as a so-called "hook" for elite schools. "</p>

<p>Seriously, while being Intel top 40 probably is a hook, being an all-state oboist is not. There are too many kids who are beyond the high school level in music, performing in professional/semi-professional orchestras,etc. I mean Yo-Yo Ma went to Harvard; I don't think an all-state cellist's application would have looked too impressive that same year. And, again, if the musician neglected his studies, he's not going to make it either. </p>

<p>You write:
"I think one of the reasons may be that the type of debate kids do in high school is a very different format from that on the college level."
Some kids do parli in high school. (There's a boarding school league in it and there will always be apps from kids who competed in Secondary School Worlds in parli. Some of these will be international kids, BTW. ) But, yes, parli tends to be an activity in which high school extempers, Congress debaters, MUN kids and others excel, in addition to the kids who did policy and Lincoln-Douglas in high school. </p>

<p>Anyway, I'm glad you think high school debate is a worthwhile activity. All the OP asked for, after all, was some arguments to help her convince the principal that her daughter's public school should have a team.</p>

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<p>Pamavision
Our H.S debate team was started about 7 years ago, with 10 members. Today we have nearly 80 members, and students have to try-out to be accepted. We participate in several different events, including extemporaneous speech, LD debate, Congress, Public Forum, Poetry, Original Oratory, etc. etc. etc. We have developed on outstanding and greatly respected team. At the end of each year, we have a banquet, and the graduating members are felicitated, with announcements of the amazing schools that they will be attending. It is truly inspiring.</p>

<p>Students who participate in an activity like this develop extraordinary confidence, communication skills, rhetoric, logic, are going to make a positive impression at job interviews and cocktail parties alike.</p>

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<p>Yes, the likely letter from Yale goes against my point. Yet Princeton does have ED, not EA, and with that committment and his stratospheric accomplishments, we were all shocked at his deferral. And I never changed what I said, just gave a different kind of example. I know of a bunch of others I could have cited. What I objected in your post was the distortions like "coaches guarateeing Princeton", or "students going off the deep end". Those phrases take what I said into another realm.</p>

<p>And yes, I was talking about LD debate, congress, etc. rather than parli., because the vast majority of h.s. students do not do parli. And from what I understand, many h.s.debaters , while they might well excel in the college activity, are not as enamored with it.</p>

<p>And my point about the oboist was very specific to that instrument, which is totally different from many others, eg. the cello, because so few students play it.</p>

<p>And further, when the OP asked for college counselors to weigh in on how they view the activity, I understood that as looking to get feedback about how participation in debate might influence college admissions. So that's why I shared my perspective in the first place., tho as I mentioned, I am not a college counselor.</p>

<p>And finally, it's not just that I think debate is "a worthwhile activity". (you exaggerate some things I said, and then water down others). I think it is one of the most worthwhile activities a student can engage in, for the many reasons I outlined in the beginning of my first post.</p>

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<p>You write:
"And from what I understand, many h.s.debaters , while they might well excel in the college activity, are not as enamored with it."</p>

<p>I'm sure that's true. However, there are also many debaters who find
parli(amentary)--the kind of debate Princeton does--a lot more enjoyable than high school debate. Additionally, there are many college debaters who began debate as an activity in college and love it. It also really depends on the college you attend. It can be very intense and if you don't like the other people on the team, it's just not worth it. Some programs are very well funded; others aren't . That can mean the difference between flying and riding all night in a Greyhound bus--as well as limiting the # of tournaments you attend and how far you can travel. </p>

<p>BTW, the re line just means we see the same thing from different perspectives--like the old story about the blind men who touched different parts of an elephant--the trunk, the tail, a tusk, etc. --and then were asked to describe it.</p>

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<p>Toastmasters!</p>

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<p>Parli is a joke. What do you mean it is more enjoyable than Policy? Are you kidding? Parli is just PFD in college. PFD is like watching two retarded kids argue with one another. You know what their topic was a month ago? If the NBA should create a dress code. I am sorry, but that is not educational or worth my time.</p>

<p>Sam Iola, basicly a God in debate, is going to UC Santa Cruz.</p>

<p>Please differentiate the type of debate you are talking about, because they are vastly different. Debate Hierarchy:</p>

<p>1)Policy
2)LD
3)Parli/PFD</p>

<p>Policy is ahead by miles. The only way to get any recognition in LD is to be the BEST in your region. Our A team LD debater was accepted at Stanford EA. He was number 1 in the southwest. PFD/Parli is a joke that is never to be associated with any other form of debate. LD and PFD are easy to follow for outsiders, but someone that walked into a policy round could not even understand what was going on. At all.</p>

<p>Back to the original question. Policy is quite impressive due to the MASSIVE amount of time necessary to do well. I spent more time on debate than I do on homework each week. (6 AP all A's). Everything else is really meh. Get your daughter to be captain. You probably wont have funding from the school to leave the state, so your debate will be really mediocre but still have some resume value. Real policy debate camp is $3750 for 4 weeks. Look at DDI and Northwestern. A fledgling debate program is really hard. You will basicly lose to any team worth their tubs to be out carded. With like 10 coaches printing custom talored blocks to your affs. I wish you and your daughter the best of luck. I would not trade my time in debate for anything else. Except for a full ride + some spending money from an upper ivy. </p>

<p>Sorry that was a long incoherent rant with no specific point. I just got back from a local tournament.</p>

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<p>First of all, to be successful in policy debate you have to have an excellent coach and an excellent team. This can't happen overnight, but a school/team can improve enormously in a few years if they get a good coach and reasonable resources to support the team effort (including money to support travel). (It can also become rotten quickly if it loses a knowledgeable and experienced coach.) </p>

<p>To be truly competitive, that is to "win," also requires a virtually year-round effort. There may be a couple of light months in Spring, but starting in summer you have to attend one of the good debate camps (there are several), and then typically your competition will culminate in state championships in February, with national tournaments after that. (Actually, there are several "national" tournaments earlier in the year but the championships, so to speak, occur after states are done.)</p>

<p>I concur with the previous poster that if you want to be good you will spend a massive amount of time. My son was a state champion policy debater, and I know what it took for him. Like the previous poster, he spent more time on debate than he did on all of his other school work combined. He attended debate camp three summers during high school. (After he graduated, he worked as a coach in camps as a summer job. He didn't continue as a debater in college.)</p>

<p>Unlike some other types of "debate," policy debate doesn't breed great elocutionary skill. The average person can barely understand what the debaters are saying because of the stylized and incredibly rapid presentation. But policy debate fosters great research, reasoning, and organizational skills.</p>

<p>My son reports one job interview that he had in his senior year in college, in which the interviewer asked him "What skills do your debate experience give you that are useful now?" His answer: "I can read a serious and complex research paper, digest it, summarize it, and write a critique of it in 30 minutes -- and I will be very accurate."</p>

<p>For my son the value of debate was also in the teamwork itself, the camaraderie, and, frankly, the competition. He wasn't into sports (except as a fan), but he got tremendous satisfaction from debate because it is also an activity that rewards hard work, preparation, and skill.</p>

<p>The time demand is something that needs to be managed as best you can. Basically, there is no short-cut to success in debate. Of course, it helps to be very smart! For my son, debate also helped to keep him happier and more connected with his schoolwork than he might otherwise have been. And he also won a small scholarship to college based his winning the individual J. S. Knight state championship after the team season was over.</p>

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<p>DD was a policy debater, also - but changed to LD later on. Policy debate is like listening to an auctioneer selling antique furntiture - you really have to have an ear for it to understand what's going on!</p>

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<p>One thing to keep in mind is that the debate landscape is different in different parts of the country. In our region, policy debate is dying a slow death with many tournaments not even offering it b/c there are not enough teams. I was a policy debater in high school and for a year in college and my D is drawn to Public Forum. I loathed it initially and found it obnoxious. However, the kids on my team love it - they love that every month they learn a new topic (and with the exception of that ridiculous NBA topic they are pretty timely) and that there is less in depth research. It allows them to debate while also contributing to other activities such as sports, theater, music, jobs, etc. They are learning to think on their feet. I still prefer LD which to me is a better compromise but I do see the value in PF. I like that it is very user friendly. Debating in college on a national circuit is a lot different. It is a year round activity and requires missing classes to travel and essentially giving up a lot of a social life - at least that was the case at my college which was at that time, annually a national contender. Parli strikes me as being the college version of PF - user friendly - one can still have a life and pursue a passion. My point is that what type of debate one does depends on what one wants out of it. If your D is looking for a hook - like any other hook, it requires passion, committment and time. ....summer camps, etc. That said, there is a lot of value to just participating. The community of people is amazing - accepting, different, and stimulating.</p>

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<p>There is much truth in the posts above. My son was a top national LD debater (top 15 in ranking, top 16 at Tournament of Champions--won several national circuit events), and the amount of time he devoted to the activity was massive. The travel expenses were also significant, as the school only funds travel to those tournaments that can be reached by bus. He did most of his traveling with kids from another school district whose coach would fly with them to big national tournaments (but the kids paid for their flights, hotels, etc.) However, he did only go to one of those camps for one summer (between freshman and soph years)--he tried to compensate for that with extra reading and much observation of other debaters during tournaments. </p>

<p>Our highschool only does LD and Congress, and typically has about 15-20 participants each year. We do have a devoted coach and a history of success considering the size of the team, but our coach's involvement is not like what we heard goes on at other schools in terms of writing cases and developing positions. Certainly, without experienced coaching, a team is at a considerable disadvantage. Perhaps the OP can look into forging a relationship with another school that does have an well-established team. Best of luck!</p>

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<p>Northwestern University's application specifically asks if you are interested in participating in debate at NU. They also track early contact and weigh it heavily in the admission process so, if it's a school that might interest your daughter, you might want to consider their summer program: <a href="http://www.northwestern.edu/nhsi/CoonHardy.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.northwestern.edu/nhsi/CoonHardy.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>