@SDC9160
Ability to pay and admissions:
Checkout post #36 point 1.
Out-of-state applying to state public:
I don’t have any financial aid expertise. At Stanford, admission officers don’t consider an applicant’s ability to pay (sans international students). So I’d be speculating. But I get where you’re going. Public universities are hurting and may be more inclined to consider full-pay, out-of-state students this year.
Acceptance rates:
Unless schools take unprecedented action and increase the class size, it will be the most competitive year ever. Take Harvard for example. They had 20% of their students defer admission. So 20% of those seats are already taken (and that number includes international students). Will they increase the number of seats this year? I hope so, but I’m just reading the news like you and haven’t heard anything yet.
You’ve mentioned a few times being “underdog champions” and I think that is a great approach, especially for a top-ranked school that meets need, to take . But does the flipside mean that someone coming from a wealthy town with highly regarded public schools is somehow at an inherent disadvantage? How can these students show that they are more than just the inevitable product of a privileged background?
Rationing: Not aware. I’ve never heard of a capable student not being able to take an AP class because their parent lacked political pull. If that happens, tactically, I’d advise finding another way to take a college-level course if possible–online, community college, self-study, etc. Because that’s not something you can raise in an effective way in an application without coming across poorly. The way admission officers would get clued-in would be in the college counselor’s School Report where counselors address issues like: “Our school limits students to only taking 3 APs each year.”
Progression: It depends on the school you’re targeting and what you want to major in. If you’re a stand-out English-history student with plenty of rigor, but you don’t take calculus, it’s not an issue. If you want to study a STEM field that relies on math, it could be an issue. I get your point: it’s wild that a middle school decision could mean a student might lack rigor. But tactically, I don’t think you can do much with this in your application. You don’t want to write about it. It will just sound like an excuse.
Rationing Letters: Not aware. Teachers will only write a certain amount? I’ve never heard of it. Best practical advice: submit a letter from someone else that can verify one of your impressive activities. Those are usually better anyways since teachers write so many that they default to form letters. For example, if you organized a debate at your school and worked with the Vice Principal to secure the space, get a letter from them. If you’ve done an internship, ask your supervisor to write a letter. (That’s one reason I advise students to generate their own activities instead of doing standard, school-based activities like everyone else.)
Is it fair to say that you and your early read colleagues make recommendations to accept certain students but the admissions director(s) would be the ones that make the ultimate acceptance decisions from "buckets" of qualified students. For example, it would seem that Stanford, like many colleges need to have X number of URM students, X number of full pay students, recruited athletes, STEM students, legacy, development donors, faculty kids, female vs. male ratios (50/50), etc. So while some applicants might be excellent students for admissions, they might still not get accepted as they didn't fulfill the specific institutional needs of the college?
Did you rank applicants numerically in several areas. For example, GPA (1-5); ECs (1-5); Essays (1-5), etc. and then accepted those students with the highest summary of "points" or was it more subjective?
How long on average did you review a file: 5, 10, or 15+ minutes?
What is the one thing that applicants do "wrong" when submitting an application?
An F is a big deal–you want to get that up as much as possible and you definitely don’t want to have to report it. I’d reach out to NYU to get clarity on first quarter grade reporting. If there’s a chance you have to turn them in, I’d go ED 2.
Admission readers deal with all sorts of transcripts–from AP, to IB, to A Levels. And we unweight your GPA. So I wouldn’t worry about them having to piece together the different transcripts.
But you will have the opportunity to write about changing schools in your Common Application: Treat that essay like your Personal Essay and nail it. You have a compelling story to tell about studying in France; make it shine.
Hello,
Thanks for doing this! My school is an IB school that uses weighted GPA, but does not report class rank. I’ve heard that colleges can calculate class rank using your GPA; is this true, and if so, how do they do it?
Thanks for doing this! Do you think there will be any judgement if a student from a school in a high SES area does not submit a test score this year? Is TO really only for lower SES students or is it truly different this year? Our D goes to a highly ranked, large public school where 89 percent go to four year colleges and we have very high average ACT and SAT scores. Long story short - after four cancellations, D got two shots at an SAT just ten days apart from each other and we don’t think the score adds to her app so she’s going TO. I hope TO really means TO and she won’t be judged because the AO thinks she “should have” been able to get a score.
@Southoftheriver
I can only think of one time we talked about a student not being a “fit.” They were compelling, but had another college all over their application, had taken every AP and SAT II offered, and didn’t come off well in their Letter to Your Future Roommate essay.
College counselors talk a lot about “fit” as in finding the right school. And I’ve heard some admission officers talk about it too. I think the whole concept is overrated and usually just something said thoughtlessly that sounds nice. Because schools are so much more alike than they are different. The Naval Academy, or MIT, or a religious school? Sure, they have different qualities they care about. But if you’re a fit at Stanford, you’re a fit at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Duke, etc.
Because almost all top schools are looking for the same things: (i) compelling scholars to work with their professors; (ii) students with stand-out skills who will make their campuses thrive and have the potential to do something important when they graduate; and (iii) excellent personal qualities that suggest the student will be a fantastic classmate and roommate. Those map onto three key concepts: Intellectual vitality, point of excellence, and texture. (These are concepts we talked about at Stanford, but they’re my definitions.) These are the three key concepts you need to understand to approach your applications.
Intellectual Vitality (IV): Palpable academic energy that shows up in college applications as raw intelligence, authentic joy for learning, or striking thoughtfulness.
Princeton and UCLA call this trait simply: intellectual curiosity. Harvard talks about it as being a genuine scholar. This is the key factor. You’re applying to be a student who studies with Nobel Laureates. You need your application to glow with IV.
Point of Excellence: A single, stand-out skill or interest you’ve developed to such an impressive degree, that you look different from almost all other applicants.
It’s the opposite of being “well-rounded”—that is, someone with four years of sports, school clubs, volunteer work, and no clear academic interest. Duke refers to this concept as being “well-lopsided.” Harvard’s term is “Distinguishing Excellences.” It’s rare.
Texture: When I read your application, your personality pops off the page. Texture is what makes me fall in love with you as an applicant. It’s the secret sauce that transforms a reader from gatekeeper to advocate. Texture means your application is filled with novel, funny, or endearing personal qualities and interests. Texture means you come off as humble, authentic, and have moxie—you’re resilient, not afraid to take chances, and you’re positive, especially in the face of adversity. The opposite trait is called flat—a flat application could be a valedictorian with perfect test scores and impressive activities, but their application has no sizzle. It’s boring, generic, safe.
I can’t do it all justice in a post. But these three key qualities come through in your writing, activities, and letters of support. If you have all three, you’re a fit at most schools.
Can you explain the reading process in detail? Who reads your application in what order and how is it presented to the committee?
Can you explain what HSR is? I’ve seen it in a lot of Stanford admissions files, and a lot of them get 3 for some reason even though they have taken a ton of APs.
How are upward trends looked upon? (All A’s junior year, but a few B’s before that)
Freshman Grades:
When I was at Stanford, our official policy was not to consider freshman grades. And that was true: we didn’t count them when assessing your transcript and calculating your unweighted GPA. In practice, of course you would see the grades when you looked at the transcript, and it affected class rank, but those grades didn’t get factored into rating an applicant’s academic excellence.
But I gave their admissions page a quick look: I didn’t see this policy posted anymore. And they ask for a transcript with grades for 9-12. So it looks like that policy has probably changed. I gave them a call to confirm but phone lines are closed–you can email them admission@stanford.edu. (Note: admission officers work phone lines and answer emails just fyi.)
Legacy:
No, at least when I was there, only a parent who attended as an undergrad was a true “legacy.” The sibling gets noticed, but didn’t carry any weight. I can’t imagine that’s changed.
@SJ2727 No, they’re not at a disadvantage. Admission officers know that kids don’t control the family they’re born into; no one holds it against a student if they attend a top school or have professional parents. I’m just pointing out the psychological reality that if you have a dynamite kid who’s had to overcome challenges–financial, medical, etc.–you pull for them a little bit.
Students at top schools or that come from privileged backgrounds should not address that at all in my opinion. Any effort to tackle that will sound cliché or come off wrong.
I’ve said admission officers are underdog champions, but that’s a secondary characteristic. Admission officers are primarily talent and scholar-scouts looking for the best, most compelling students to study at their school. The focus for all applicants should be this simple: What do you want to study and why?
@MichaelCShort Thanks very much for your reply. I really appreciate your thoughts about my son’s interests. You suggestions are great! One other question. For family reasons, we are considering moving, which would cause our son to do his senior year in a new school (moving from a Northern CA private school to being a day student in a New England prep/boarding school). Do you have thoughts about such an unorthodox move? Is it inadvisable from a college application perspective (we can put the move off a year)?
Process:
Here’s a rough outline of my experience: After I read all my students, I went to a committee with a few colleagues and a more senior leader. Then I’d go through every student I read, talk about students I was recommending for admission, and we’d vote: Accept, Defer, Waitlist, Deny. Then another colleague would go through their students. That’s it.
Every student that I recommended for admission and that my colleagues voted to accept was accepted. No one ever came to me and said, “Hey, we have too many of this, or not enough of that, we need you to recommend someone who fits these categories.” To your point, the Dean and folks at the highest levels have their eyes on the class. But what they do was above my pay grade.
Rating:
Yes, we had a rating system so everyone could see how you assessed applicants in key categories. But no, we didn’t add these up for a final score. The overall score was our best take on whether the student was a clear admit, worthy of committee consideration, a denial, etc. But it really came down to the discussion and vote at committee. I was at Stanford ten years ago though so it may have changed. If you want to get into these details your best resource is the Harvard Reading Procedures for the Class of 2023. It’s available if you search online courtesy of the Harvard affirmative action lawsuit. That outlines in detail exactly how admission officers rate applicants and more.
Review time:
For a denial, it could be as quick as 10 minutes. For a student I wanted to recommend for admission, it could be as long as 40 minutes. Because I would prep the file so that when I was at committee two months later, I remembered why I liked them and could advocate effectively for them to earn admission.
One Mistake:
The biggest mistake I see is students forget they’re applying to be . . . a student. A student who works with college professors. They are going to read, write, do research in specific academic fields. That’s what they should write about. Instead, they focus too much on highlighting personal qualities–a childhood memory about experiencing loss; a new sense of appreciation after coming in contact with poverty; how they befriended a student with a learning disability. All admirable, but not on point for applying to be a scholar studying with some of the smartest people on the planet. In short, they need to focus on their academic interests and intellectual qualities.
@geofan We didn’t calculate rank based on GPA. If a school reported it, we had it. If not, we didn’t. What we really focus on is the transcript: At the top schools, we’re doing a quick scan to see that you have almost all As and enough rigor. (IB program is excellent and admission readers know it.) As long as you had those markers for academic excellence (and testing in a normal year), we quickly moved on to your activities and writing.
Testing: No, there’s no way an admission officer will make an assessment like that. I take these schools at their word: test optional schools will not hold it against you this year. (See Post #23.) There’s no way they can sort out who should and shouldn’t have been able to take a test, etc.
High-SES Area: Coming from a high SES area has no bearing on our expectations for testing or your admission decision. (See Post #51.)
Just a comment. While it’s true there are similarities in what HYPS-etc look for, “fit” isn’t generic. Each tippy top has a sense of identity and the community they want to build. (“In and out of class.”)
And “well rounded” refers to more than just the academic and EC resume. It’s not something limp, but a willingness to go beyond just one’s narrower pre-formed interests. As shown, not just claimed. After all, this is the US system, where a variety of excellences (and pursuits) are expected.
Unilateral or even lopsided talents may work in some cases, but I believe most high school kids misunderstand.
Sometimes, there are students posting on these forums whose middle school placement was not advanced (i.e. algebra 1 in 9th grade leading to precalculus in 12th grade), but want to take calculus in high school because they are aiming for highly selective colleges. Would you recommend that they double-up (geometry and algebra 2) in 10th grade or take math during the summer to get into the advanced track so that they reach calculus in 12th grade?
Another math progression question: does reaching math beyond single variable calculus while in high school matter? Sometimes, there are students posting on these forums who are already in an advanced math track but want to get further advanced.
See Post #54. Your best resource is doing a Google search for the Harvard Reading Procedures for the Class of 2023.
Rigor is how demanding your schedule is compared to other students at your school. Typically, your college counselor assesses your rigor compared to other students when they fill out your School Report. If you pull that doc. up on Common App., you'll see there is a box for them to check: Most Demanding, Very Demanding, Demanding, etc. At top schools, you really need the Most Demanding box checked.
Admission officers will do their own assessment of rigor, but we typically defer to your counselor who knows your school and how you stack up against everyone since we only see the students who apply.
Things may have changed since I worked at Stanford ten years ago, but what you’re describing sounds unusual: tons of APs and getting an average score for rigor. That sounds off to me. I’d have to read the file. But there really is no rule on a minimum number of APs at Stanford. And I’m sure it’s the same at the other top schools–because it’s all dependent on what is offered at your school.
At the best schools, it's unusual to get in with anything less than straight As (A+, A, A-.) So candidly, I don't think a trend does much. (I know admission officers will talk about this upward trend though even at the top schools.) That said, some of my favorite admits had a B or two, even a C (rare). But as you move down the rankings, there might be something to the "upward trend" idea. I also could see the "upward trend" being true at schools that don't count freshman grades.