@ClownCollege2 Check out post #36 point 3.
@ClownCollege2 They are just more data for us to assess your academic excellence. You should definitely send them in if you have strong grades to report. Re: trends, see post #59 point 3.
Hi - enjoying reading all these questions and answers. Thank you
Even though I am a US Citizen I go to high school in Australia. How well do admission officers know our syllabus and exam system. It is quite a complicated system and would not want to be disadvantaged. Thank you
Hi there Michael. Thank you for doing this. With regards to rank, did you bin by rank at Stanford (i.e. val/sal, 1%, 5%, 10%, <10%)? Additionally, when AOs determine HSR, it seems that they take into account both the rigor of the students courseload and also the rigor of the high school they attend. The reason why I suspect this is because I have heard of 4.0/1600/36 kids who are ranked 1st or 2nd in their class receive 2- or 3+'s on HSR on their Stanford app. Is there any merit to this idea?
Very aware. Everyone gets that students, ultimately, have no control over what their recommender writes. Letters of support are icing on the cake that rarely play much of a role in my experience. Almost all of them are standard positive: “Mike is a fantastic student who will thrive at Stanford–you’re lucky to have him!” That’s not moving the needle. I’d say 90% of letters essentially boil down to that sentiment.
The key to this process is making peace with the fact that this it’s subjective, involves a lot of luck, and has bits of unfairness baked-in for all sorts of reasons. But admission offices strive to be fair and objective and I think they do a good job of it given how hard the task is: Select 2,000 students from a pool of 50,000 absurdly qualified kids. It’s hard.
Students have to focus on what they can control. So with recommendation letters, I advise my kids to provide a short cover letter to their recommender.
Check out this excerpt, again, from Jeff Selingo in an Emory committee this spring: "One admissions officer found the recommendations lacking because they focused on her personal qualities instead of what happened in the classroom. ‘I like her, if we have room,’ someone said. ‘Well, we don’t,’ said another.” “The Secrets of Elite College Admissions,” WSJ, Aug. 28, 2020.
That checks out with my Stanford experience as well. So help your writer, help you: explain what you want to study and why, and ask them to focus on your intellectual qualities. Don’t hand them a two-page “brag sheet” and invite them to say generic things about three of your activities. Control what you can. Be a mature student who appreciates that they teach 250 students and may write more than 100 letters every year.
–MCS
@Bluepit Don’t worry: the admission office educates any reader on the international committee so they’re up to speed on the different grading systems.
–MCS
When you say straight A’s, do you mean literally every nine weeks, for the entire year for all 4 years, in every class?
Or, do you mean, straight A end of year final course grades for the year? (Which may include a couple B+ grades for one or two nine weeks during the school year but still results in straight A averages for all the classes for that year.)
@ucbalumnus As a general rule, maxing out the classes available to you and then seeking additional classes is an excellent way to demonstrate IV. But I don’t have any specific suggestions on the best way to get caught up in math. It’s probably best to start building a good relationship with your college counselor and the person at your school who has authority to put you in that calculus class. Make sure they’ll accept a summer course, or see if they want you to double-up, etc. (Doubling-up sounds like a lot of work during the year, I’d probably opt for a summer class.)
–MCS
@classicsmom No, I don’t see any college admission angle that would help or hurt. He’ll just have to write that Common App. prompt explaining why he transferred schools. Without knowing more, if you can put the move off I’d do that–I’d imagine he’ll do better (academically, personally, etc.) by staying at a school where he’s comfortable, has friends, and is part of teams.
–MCS
Thanks for answering my test optional question. I’m still a little curious about why I hear AOs now all saying that they always could evaluate students without a score and that it was always just a “part” of the application. I guess - but if you look at many of the top schools’ common data sets, they say test scores are “important”. How can we square that? Test scores “important” and now they are not?
Do you think colleges will only take a certain percentage of kids with no scores?
@123Mom123 I’m not sure what you mean by nine weeks of grades–I’ve never seen a transcript like that. I’m assuming that’s not what your official transcript looks like. But right, we’re talking final grades–not intermediary grades the teacher provides that aren’t on your official transcript. If you’re on a semester system, for example, your transcript will show final grades for first semester, and second semester. Here’s the bottom-line: whatever transcript you submit with your application, you ideally want it to have all As (A+, A, A-) showing on it if you’re applying to the very best schools.
–MCS
Wouldn’t the effect of changing schools in senior year have indirect effects on college admission and choice due to the following:
- New school counselor / teacher unfamiliarity with the incoming student.
- Curriculum and course progression mismatch between the old school and new school.
- Missing graduation requirements at the new school that were not required at the old school that force suboptimal selection of academic courses.
- Limitations on continuing some types of extracurriculars.
?
Also, for this particular situation:
- Effect on state residency for tuition purposes (many consider California publics to be more desirable than the publics in New England states).
- Being a commuter student at a residential school may not be the best social situation.
@homerdog I think colleges are just doing the best they can during an unprecedented time. The priority is gauging academic excellence. Your grades, rigor, and testing are key indicators that help them do that. Testing is extra data most schools would prefer to have. But since they can’t require it in fairness this year, they’re going to make due by assessing your academic excellence through your transcript and rigor. Plus, they’ll evaluate your academic excellence as they always do by looking at your activities, awards, writing, school report, and letters.
No, I don’t think colleges will put any percentages on taking kids with or without scores. If they say it’s test optional, I think they mean it. (See previous posts.)
@MichaelCShort - Thx for answering and clarifying about the transcript straight A’s.
Another question:
For some reason our school system also includes the MS (6-8th grades) in the official transcripts. S has straight A’s for each of those 3 years so I’m not overly concerned about why they are even included but they also include his taking the SAT in 7th and 8th grade for Duke Tip (which he was selected for), but is it odd or uncommon for AO’s to have access to ALL of these official school transcripts? (I’m assuming it’s NOT a negative but that it will be disregarded.)
@123Mom123 Yes, it’s odd. I’ve never seen middle school grades. Right, they’ll just disregard it. Schools control transcripts, not kids–won’t be held against him.
–MCS
I have heard that the number of people sitting on a committee can vary between each applicant, could you please elaborate? Does it depend on legacy etc. ?
Hi Michael, thank you for doing this!
My first question is: How much does an art supplement have effect on the overall application or on the chances of being admitted? I was wondering since the art supplement deadline is around 2 weeks before the normal REA deadline, does this give the applicants any advantage?
I was also wondering if you had any stories dealing with twins as an admissions officer? Me and my brother are both applying to Stanford (during different rounds). I have read during other AMAs that having a twin could be a boost if one is slightly stronger than the other, however, I am hoping to hear more about your experience!
My next question is: Is there a nuance when evaluating an applicant’s grades, like an 89 versus 81? Or are those seen as the same?
@ye2024 When I was at Stanford, international committee, for example, was much bigger than the committees for Early and Regular. No, committee size doesn’t vary based on legacy or anything like that. Check out the Harvard Interviewer Guide if you want all the details on this process: “Each subcommittee varies in size, but generally includes three to six area representatives, a docket chair (a senior admissions officer), and the docket’s faculty readers.” (pg. 17.) Just Google Harvard Interviewer Guide and you can read all about it. (Courtesy of the Harvard affirmative action trial.)
–MCS
Just to clarify, just because you say a student should be accepted, once it comes to committee or admissions director they can decide NOT to give this student an offer because they need to shape a class into certain buckets for their institutions needs?
If this is the case, than that could explain the TO question. During the reader review they will not hold “no test” against the students buy once it reaches a review “above your pay grade” the directors can take whether a student has a test or not into consideration?
Kinda like the same way “legacy” doesn’t matter to you during the initial review but ultimately someone is giving a boost to legacy applicants, right?
@dancer128
Art Portfolio: Yes, it’s helpful. Depending on the faculty review and how much they want you, it can become a compelling part of your application. Even if the faculty say you’re just average, it’s a helpful piece of evidence that verifies your claimed interest in dance, theater, etc. is legitimate.
Twins: I think this did come up once but it’s straining my memory. It’s not much of an edge and would only be an issue if one was getting accepted. But I recall we did feel a slight sentiment to give both of them the same outcome if possible.
Grades: When I was at Stanford, if we unweighted your GPA, an A+, A, A- all counted as a 4.0. A B+, B, B- all counted as a 3.0. Harvard’s similar–they have a whole section on academic index calculations if you want to get really into the details. (Google Harvard Reading Procedures Class of 2023.)
–MCS