Frats and Sororities - Influence on Campus

Parents Forum
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<p>Well we returned. Took me a while to read through all of this, but it was well worth it. Of six schools we visited, he has chosen three for his final list (I don't want to name them to preserve his privacy): one small LAC with no frats that is known for not having a drinking culture; another small LAC with under around an 18% Greek participation (according to the info session); one mid-size university with no frats, located close to an urban area but with a big football scene and known drinking culture. Two others he ruled out have no frats and one other has a 40% Greek participation rate.</p>

<p>I agree wholeheartedly that one must take into consideration all that a school has to offer and not rule out any based solely on the frat scene. I do tend though to agree with what was said here that around a 30-40% or above Greek rate would tend to be a pretty major influence on the culture. It just seems like common sense to me.</p>

<p>What I don't understand is some of the animosity expressed, such as the poster who said "Why the histrionics from hand wrenching parents? Believe it or not the little darlings will be okay in college..." etc. etc.</p>

<p>A couple of things come to mind. a) Most kids are more than aware that they can drink <em>even in high school!</em> if they so wish. By the time a kid is 18, it's pretty obvious whether they care to run with the drinking crowd or not. In my son's case, he has chosen not to. He would like to continue the same lifestyle in college, if possible. He just doesn't have a lot of respect for drunk college kids, as he doesn't for drunk high school kids. This is HIS view and his choice (and also lucky, since any drinking at all in his case could cause serious health risks). </p>

<p>b) Drinking under the age of 21 is ILLEGAL. As a parent, I feel I have every right to emphasize that it's a good thing to follow the law. I think attempting to teach them this will serve them well in life. Why should drinking be exempt from this value? </p>

<p>c) Even if my S was chomping at the bit to cut loose in college and drink himself blind three nights a week, I don't think he's been able to put away the $120,000 we'll be expected to pay as parents for his education. Guess he's a slacker in that area. LOL. In other words, in my view, of course we as parents would have a right to express our opinion about certain campus cultures and yes, even veto certain schools. In my opinion, many of the problems kids are having in these areas are due to parental abdication of their fundamental responsibilities, and in the case of out of control drunk kids, I think colleges have an obligation to step in and fill the void. I have a hard time understanding why they appear to be so fearful of doing so.</p>

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Those binge drinking stats you posted for GW are nearly 10 years old.

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<p>Then, with all due respect, go find your own.</p>

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High binge drinking rate? Cross it off your list. Really, it's not that simple.

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<p>Why isn't that simple? Nobody bats an eye when a student says they cross schools off their lists because they don't have "party" reputations or fraternities. They cross schools off their lists because they don't like the ham sandwich in the cafeteria. But, good lord, let some poor kid cross a school off a list because the students drink like Otis the Town Drunk and all hell breaks loose. Oh my, how could she do that? This is awful, doesn't she know that there are three students who don't drink?</p>

<p>What is the big deal? If someone wants to cross a school of the list because she doesn't like the color of the brochure, you wouldn't bat an eye. Seems to me crossing off a school for 55% alcohol blackout rate or 250 alcohol poisoning hospitalizations is at least as legitimate.</p>

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I know quite a few students who go to W&L. One of them is a non-drinker and she found her niche and is just fine. I visited the campus myself with my son a few years ago.The professors are terrific, the campus is beautiful, the students are smart and friendly. And their pride in their school is very strong. Granted, they do have issues with drinking, but I don't see it as the one dimensional hell-hole you describe.

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<p>I've been there. We visited, too. Lovely place. It's still simple. Why in the world would a student, who doesn't want to spend four years with the highest frat rate and highest binge drinking rate in the country choose that school over any one of the dozens of equally "lovely" liberal arts colleges without those huge negatives. Cross it off the list. Simple as that.</p>

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A couple of things come to mind. a) Most kids are more than aware that they can drink <em>even in high school!</em> if they so wish. By the time a kid is 18, it's pretty obvious whether they care to run with the drinking crowd or not. In my son's case, he has chosen not to. He would like to continue the same lifestyle in college, if possible. He just doesn't have a lot of respect for drunk college kids, as he doesn't for drunk high school kids. This is HIS view and his choice.

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<p>Take it one step further (and putting the health issues aside for a moment). Take a kid like you son or my daughter and her many high school friends who did not drink in high school. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that they may drink some in college. Would we all prefer that they drink in college where the prevailing, dominant drinking culture is moderate, occasional social drinking and where the student culture frowns on "drinking to you puke", drinking to you blackout, or drinking 'til they call the ambulance?</p>

<p>It doesn't even have to be an anti-drinking position, but rather an anti-drinking like Otis the Town Drunk stance.</p>

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<p>^^Absolutely. He doesn't respect drunk adults, either. :) It seems to me colleges could be doing a much better job of finding a way to encourage <em>moderation.</em></p>

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What I don't understand is some of the animosity expressed, such as the poster who said "Why the histrionics from hand wrenching parents? Believe it or not the little darlings will be okay in college..." etc. etc.

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<p>Sorry about the animosity, caught me on a defensive day. I just get a wee bit tired of reading posts that suggest that my son - by virtue of being in a fraternity - is somehow predisposed to be a raging, binge drinking drunk slacker who is predisposed to rape and committing other felonies. When I read the thread, and saw posts such as those, I took offense, as I'm sure any parent would whose kid is being lumped into a characterization such as this.</p>

<p>Sounds like your kid is a great boy, so is mine, he just chose the greek route, and it hasn't hurt him academically or socially. He has somehow managed to stay on course with good decisions and a healthy lifestyle. </p>

<p>I hope you and your son find the perfect fit for him:)</p>

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<p>^ag54, i understand what you mean about the annoying posts. these parents are just overgeneralizing by basically deeming all sororities girls, as well, for being drunken sluts with no self control. im glad my parents trust me to follow the morals and values they taught me instead of totally banning me from day one from being involved in a sorority. my mom was actually in a sorority as well, but was nicknamed the "invisible sister" for studying all the time. in greek life, it's ultimately UP TO YOU to choose how you want to take advantage of the opportunities and spend your time in it. </p>

<p>for all of you parents utterly against frats/sororities...you need to stop watching "animal house" and get back to reality to see what greek life really like today.</p>

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<p>Thanks, ag54, that's what we're hoping for! I can see how it would be upsetting for any parent of a good kid who happens to belong to a frat to read these stats. However, the numbers don't lie. (I presume?) If my kid partook of any behavior of the sort described here and other places, my husband and I would enforce our one strike and you're out policy. He could go to the cc and we'd be fine with that. It's astonishing how many parents are willing to cover for bad behavior, imo, as long as their kid is getting a decent gpa. (I've witnessed this over and over among high school parents.) I think that mentality is contributing to the problem.</p>

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<p>Because its politics major is truly nonconservative/nonliberal
Because the total class size is <500
because the individual classes are for the most part <40
Because it is in a beautiful area of the United States
Because the town/gown relationship is very strong</p>

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However, the numbers don't lie. (I presume?)

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<p>Ilsa, Sometimes statistics can be straightforward and reliable. Admissions rates, SAT scores, retention rates are all dependable indicators.</p>

<p>Drinking rates -- especially any that use the emotionally weighted, non-scientific, variable term "binge" -- are not reliable indicators. They are often outdated, inconsistently applied, subjectively presented and conflated with other figures. We see examples of all of these in this thread alone.</p>

<p>I'm 100% of the opinion that a student can X a college off his/her list for any and all reasons. It IS a personal decision and there are far, far too many college choices to pursue any one that does "feel" right. </p>

<p>BUT, I am highly suspicous of the use of drinking rates as a reason to discourage pursuit of an individual college, especially when the studies quoted can't be easily accessed and the recommenders' personal agendas figure largely in their opinions.</p>

<p>This is a public message board. Everyone is welcome to his/her opinion and I don't in any way mean to stifle opinion. Opine away! But readers should absorb all opinions through their own personal filters. One size does not fit all.</p>

<p>Visit, talk to current students and families whose characters and values are most like yours, make your own judgment. Look at retention rates -- are the kids mostly satisfied? Look at the personality of current students -- are they the kind of kids that you or your son/daughter would choose as friends.</p>

<p>Bad things happen at good colleges, all of them. A college purported for low alcohol intake may have other issues that concern you more. The context is critical and tradeoffs are inevitable.</p>

<p>Good luck and let us know how you do.</p>

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<p>"But, good lord, let some poor kid cross a school off a list because the students drink like Otis the Town Drunk and all hell breaks loose."</p>

<p>What do you have against Otis? He was a responsible drunk--as you surely recall, he routinely locked himself up in the drunk tank.</p>

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<p>As noted, it depends on the culture of the particular school. Binge drinking certainly takes place at schools both with and without frats.</p>

<p>However I think it is fair to say that if you don't drink you should avoid small schools (<2,000) with high frat participation rates. A larger state school has so many students that a high percentage doesn't mean there won't be other social opportunities.</p>

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<p>That's true. I am probably unfairly demeaning Otis in the comparison.</p>

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<p>The belief that simply choosing the ‘right college’ based on factors such as presence of frats or binge drinking rates in order to control a young adult’s access to alcohol largely misses the point. In the same manner that a policy advocating sexual abstinence never prevented teen pregnancies, there is no evidence that simply trying to prevent kids from gaining access to alcohol will reduce binge drinking. </p>

<p>First, it is important to understand why young adults drink. Not surprisingly, and very much like sex, they do it because they enjoy it. Alcohol has been the social lubricant since antiquity (and earlier). Every culture uses alcohol to facilitate communication among strangers, to reduce inhibitions. If one were to use the US standards of binge drinking and apply it to countries such as Japan, then virtually every business meeting is followed by binge drinking. Heck, by that same measure, every dinner I ever had in France with friends was binge drinking, with more empty bottles at the end of the dinner than people around the table. </p>

<p>It is therefore not surprising that young adults, often with limited social skills, thrown together with total strangers, will feel tremendous pressure to fit in and develop friendships. Alcohol is simply a means to achieve that end. Many 18 year olds are fairly shy, suffer from low self-esteem and often believe that participating in drinking activities makes them more attractive. Young men, especially during freshman year are particularly vulnerable. While women have no problem getting attention from upperclassmen, male freshmen are the most likely to get excluded from the dating scene. Drinking and sports are some of the few single sex social activities they can engage in college.</p>

<p>The primary responsibility for educating a student about the risks of alcohol lies with the parents, not the school. As a parent you may try to delay the time when your children actually start drinking, (or having sex), but eventually, they will and you will have little control over it. If more parents had an open discussion about alcohol with their children and addressed the dangers of alcohol abuse as opposed to simply prohibited its use, there would be far fewer cases of severe intoxication. Growing up in France, I simply don’t recall ever seeing my friends pass out of throw up from excessive alcohol consumption. </p>

<p>With our two daughters, we have served them small amounts of wine at family dinners since they were 16, simply to demystify alcohol and for them to understand its physical effects in moderation in a highly controlled environment. We never served liquor and don’t even keep any in the house. They understood that there a zero tolerance for drinking and driving. We always gave our daughters an extra $20 if they needed to take a cab ride home if the designated driver had been drinking. </p>

<p>When our eldest daughter finally went away to college at MIT last fall, we believed she was well prepared. MIT has a relatively low level of binge drinking (28%) despite a strong presence of frats on campus. Nearly half of the students don’t drink at all. The school attributes its success to a mature approach to dealing with alcohol abuse. While technically prohibiting underage drinking, the college fully realizes that students will experiment with alcohol. All freshmen, which are the most vulnerable to alcohol abuse, are required to live in dorms on campus. Every incoming freshman has to attend mandatory alcohol abuse education programs. Every floor has a graduate resident as a ‘big brother or sister’. If the campus police catches a student stumbling drunk across campus, it will drive him back to his dorm and the incident will not reported to the administration. It will even pick up an underage student caught drunk by the Boston police across the river. Students are encouraged to seek medical help and any visits are kept private, even from the parents. The EMT service on campus is the first in the country entirely run by students and has members in all dorms. </p>

<p>In the end, it doesn’t really matter where you send your kid to college. Frats on campus are no more likely to turn your child into a binge drinker than coed dorms are likely to encourage promiscuity. What really matters is the message they get from their parents and the consistency of that message. While healthy alternatives to drinking are clearly to be encouraged, simply prohibiting access to alcohol is unlikely to have much effect.</p>

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<p>"The belief that simply choosing the "right college" based on factors such as presence of frats or binge drinking rates in order to control a young adult's access to alcohol largely misses the point."</p>

<p>With all due respect, I believe you largely missed the point!</p>

<p>If the prevailing culture on any given campus is one of a drink- until -you- fall -down, urinate -on- yourself and vomit mentality, and a student does not care to partake of such entertainment or even witness it, that student has every right to consider factors that are known to contribute to that culture, such as frats and binge drinking rates, when choosing a college. It is not a question of attempting to limit access to alcohol. Any kid who wants alcohol (or drugs for that matter) knows where to find it. </p>

<p>My state flagship has a "freshman ghetto" dorm. Kids in the know try to avoid it--the ones that don't care to wake up to staircases covered in vomit and urine, that is. Of course, for all I know there may be a large cohort of kids who relish those particular scents. I may just know the wrong people. :)</p>

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<p>I don't think it is part of any particular school's culture to have students vomit and urinate in a staircase. It is part of the american culture for youths to experiment with alcohol when they go to college. Many are unprepared to deal responsibly with alcohol and its abuses. Students bring the predisposition with them, the school rarely imposes it on them. Unless you send your son to BYU, the environment will have little influence on whether your son is exposed to alcohol and abuses it himself. He will see drunk students vomiting at Harvard, (maybe less conspicuously) as he would at UMass. </p>

<p>Rather than focus on what percentage of students are in frats and sororities I would suggest checking on the school's response system and support structure to deal with alcohol abuses. You should assume that alcohol consumption will be endemic on virtually any campus. You should be concerned about the safety of your son on campus, because he will be exposed to alcohol wherever he goes. </p>

<p>Some of questions we asked as parents were:</p>

<p>-Does the school system have an alcohol education program for freshmen?
-How does the school deal with offenders? Do they suspend them, call the parents or otherwise intimidate students into drinking in secret?
-Are students encouraged to seek help? How? Are appointments confidential?
-Does the school have staff psychologists to deal with the underlying causes of alcohol abuse?
-How does the school deal with medical emergencies from alcohol poisoning?
-How many instances of alcohol poisoining were reported in the last year? Is the number growing or receding?
-Are there any substance free dorms for non-drinkers?
-Are their dorm monitors in all dorms? What about EMT personnel?
-What types of social activities are available to non-drinkers?
-How safe is the campus at night after parties when students stumble back to their dorms?
-How well supervised are events where alcohol is served?
-Do the events have to be registered in advance with the school?
-Are events open to students from other schools?
-Have any frats had privileges suspended for alcohol related violations? </p>

<p>The answers to these questions may influence whether you want to send your son or daughter to a particular college.</p>

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<p>"It is a part of the american culture for youth to experiment with alcohol when they go to college."</p>

<p>I suppose this is what leads to vomiting and urinating in the freshman dorm staircase. Or hallways. Take a peak at the college life threads or individual school threads on this board if you don't believe my sources. :)</p>

<p>I understand that parents have a vested interest in protecting the reputation of their kids' fraternities and sororities, and even more so, their kids' universities; but after reading links on this thread, doing my own research, and using my own common sense, I've been reinforced in my suspicion that the <em>percentage of students in frats and sororities</em> does indeed contribute to a certain campus culture. MIT may be different in that regard, since the binge drinking stats are lower. </p>

<p>Once again, I'm not worried about protecting my S from the "evils of alcohol" (my husband and I are moderate drinkers) and he won't be able to drink anyway.</p>

<p>Even more importantly, maybe some kids just don't care for the exclusionary aspect of frats. This is actually a more important consideration than the alcohol consumption. It's a turnoff for many kids--surely they have a right to look into the percentages in that case?</p>

<p>P.S. Thanks for that excellent list of questions.</p>

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<p>"In the end, it doesn’t really matter where you send your kid to college. Frats on campus are no more likely to turn your child into a binge drinker than coed dorms are likely to encourage promiscuity. What really matters is the message they get from their parents and the consistency of that message. While healthy alternatives to drinking are clearly to be encouraged, simply prohibiting access to alcohol is unlikely to have much effect."</p>

<p>I understand what you are saying, and you have a point, but I also know that if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.</p>

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<p>Cellar, you have created an excellent list. I'll add a few more health/safety type questions:</p>

<p>How long is the wait to schedule an appointment with a mental health professional in a non-emergency situation (i.e. student not suicidal). </p>

<p>How long is the wait for a female student to schedule an appointment to get birth control, pregnancy test, std test or counseling?</p>

<p>Are students referred to local 12 step programs or is there an infrastructure in place on campus (i.e. don't need a car to meet your sponsor or attend a meeting).</p>

<p>What is the transportation infrastructure like on campus, especially on weekends? Free rides from other students? Free rides from campus police, even from a non-campus venue? Regularly scheduled shuttles that run late into the evening?</p>

<p>What procedures are in place if a student requests a transfer due to a troubling or unsafe roommate situation (i.e. female roommate bringing strangers home every night who sleep over, roommate of either gender who is regularly high, shoots up in the room, etc.) Do the dorms maintain an empty room or two for emergencies or do kids have to bunk with friends if their roommate situation becomes out of control?</p>

<p>At what point does a "grownup" become informed if a kid is sick- even with a minor respiratory infection that keeps them out of class for several days?</p>

<p>I know of several tragedies in my community- ranging from meningitis to plain vanilla drunk driving at a school which did not have any public transportation.... your kids are at danger from a lot more than just beer pong. You should know (and work with your kid to understand) when to seek medical attention, when to get counseling, when a friends "blues" could be a serious clinical depression, who is at risk for STD's, etc.</p>

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<p>frats rule...</p>

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<p>If a parent is concerned that his/her kid will turn into a binge drinker or criminal because there is a large greek presence on a given campus, then by all means the student should not be allowed to apply there. But to some of us greek alumni who have benefitted greatly from our greek experience, eliminating the entire system for the fears of a few is overkill.</p>