<p>Composite national data are what they are. There ARE fraternity equivalents founded by the ilk of Mother Theresa. The only relevant on-campus comparison would be life in the frat versus life outside.</p>
<p>There are dry frats, gay frats, Christian frats, and perhaps Rastafarian ones, all existing on equally diverse campuses - all are aggregated in the national data.</p>
<p>so mini, has the rate of binge drinking at Williams declined since they kicked out the fraternities many many years ago? Didn't I remember reading (recently) about students smearing a certain substance on dorm walls?
I agree that kids in frats and sororities drink more as a whole (the facts are what they are). And the drinking can cause horrific things to happen.
But there's also lots of data about the high percentage of Fortune 500 CEOs, members of Congress, and presidents who were Greek (yes Bush is a very bad example, but FDR was a greek guy too!). So they're not all bad. These kids can tend to be more social and they make connections that last a life time.
Residential college students, in general, have high rates of binge drinking. That doesn't stop most parents from sending their kids to these places. Where do we draw the line here? Maybe I should encourage my daughter to join a convent? I think you'll probably find good statistics for that group.</p>
<p>"There are schools with no fraternities that are heavy drinking schools and some with fraternities that are not."</p>
<p>Among top 50 LACs and Nat'l. U's, is it possible to name names? :)</p>
<p>Another thing I find annoying on tours is the typical tour guide response to any questions about campus drinking habits: "You'll find drinking on all college campuses. Our administration is committed to keeping the kids safe. Blah blah blah." </p>
<p>Is there a place to find actual statistics about ER admits, assaults, etc. at individual schools?</p>
<p>I am somewhat worried that a major drinking culture revealed only after he enrolled would greatly affect his comfort level socially, which would then impact him academically.</p>
<p>To this non-student, it doesn't appear that fraternities and sororities have a whole bunch of influence at UW-Madison. IN 2007 roughly 10% of the 25,000 undergrads were members.</p>
<p>College</a> binge drinking, pill abuse intensify - Addictions - MSNBC.com
One thing I learned from this article is that binge drinking and drug abuse is less likely to occur in dorms (vs greek houses or off campus). So finding a college with high percentage of kids living on campus may help.
Also noted that although binge drinking is higher for greeks, it appears that marijuana and prescription drug abuse is higher for those kids who live off campus.
Ilsa, be sure to have your son do a visit on a weekend night.
Top schools with lots of drinking? Williams, Darmouth, Vandy, UVA, Boston College, Umich, Washington and Lee. Off the top of my head.
Big state schools like UTexas, PSU, Wis - LOTS of drinking.
It's still possible to steer clear though...and sometimes the bigger places make it easier to find a solid group of non-drinkers.</p>
<p>ilsa, I went to a big Greek focused university and ended up (not entirely by choice) not joining. To me, the major downside was the sense of exclusion. On this campus at this time, sororities were the center of the social universe and if you couldn't belong because of finance or if you were not invited to join, you were socially stigmatized. For a teenager, being rejected in a public and competitive contest (which is what rush really is) can hurt a lot. As it turned out, a couple of years later the situation reversed, and as sororities became decidedly non-cool many of my friends dropped out of their houses, so I guess it depends a lot on the cycle.</p>
<p>There has been a huge amount of discussion and conflict on this board regarding the impact of drinking on day to day life. To me it's kind of like the perception of New York subway lines -- your own line is perfectly safe but everyone else's is full of murderers and rapists. People tend to see their own kid’s schools as being within the range of tolerance -- same goes for the kids who are currently attending. However, when we read emotionally colored statistics or, worse, horrific accounts in the campus newpapers we draw false conclusions about the ambient culture. </p>
<p>I have no doubt that I'll be back on this thread soon refuting some vitriol, so I'll just pre-empt by giving my son's experience. My son attended highschool in a country where there are no drinking laws. Alcohol was readily available and some abused. My son, blessedly, never developed much of an interest in alcohol, though he does drink socially.</p>
<p>He decided to go to Williams which has a reputation for heavy drinking despite its lack of fraternities. Kids do drink, sometimes much more than was good for them. But in no way did this deter from my son’s experience -- academically and socially. Sometimes the non-or-light drinking contingent is depicted like settlers in the stockade surrounded by comanches. In fact the actual situation is very different. At Williams my son was able to develop a wonderful social circle of kids who, as far as I can tell, are moderate social drinkers. They excelled academically and socially and when polled at graduation said they’d do it again in a heartbeat. We’re in touch with these kids and still see them socially. They are not outcasts or losers. They were campus leaders and over achievers when they were at school and are on the road to immensely satisfying careers. If you were to ask them, which I do, they would say that drinking was an annoyance, not a major calamity.</p>
<p>Drinking is just one negative aspect of campus culture. Like drugs, conspicuous consumption, competitiveness, sexual harrassment – it is an intangible influence that is difficult to quantify in way that makes sense for outsiders.</p>
<p>Yes you can look at statistics -- but be aware of two things: one, bad things happen on good campuses, all of them. Even the ones where (allegedly) kids don't drink. Keep horror stories in context. There are disgruntled students at every college; discard the worst and the best tales. The truth is somewhere in the middle.</p>
<p>Two, there is no definitive comparative study of excessive drinking. There are no published "national statistics" that compare apples to apples, in which the same survey was done at the same time school by school. Schools don't even agree on the definition of binge drinking. So when someone tells you that School A is above or below the national average for binge drinking s/he is most likely adapting statistics to serve an agenda.</p>
<p>My advice would be for your son to visit, overnight -- any day of the week that suits him. Try to talk to current students and families. You will get a feeling of whose opinion you can trust and whose judgment and standards are most like your family’s. You will also get a sense of what’s most important to your son and your family. All choices come with tradeoffs; there will be elements he likes and elements he doesn’t like at all. It’s a matter of personal preference and, of course, fit.</p>
<p>Every single sin that is mentioned above can be achieved without participation in greek life or going to college at all. It is open to everybody and choice of individual including the reason they join ANY group of people or go to college. There is no reason to blame organization.</p>
<p>"Two, there is no definitive comparative study of excessive drinking. There are no published "national statistics" that compare apples to apples, in which the same survey was done at the same time school by school. Schools don't even agree on the definition of binge drinking. So when someone tells you that School A is above or below the national average for binge drinking s/he is most likely adapting statistics to serve an agenda."</p>
<p>Statement #1 is false. There are two national surveys, one out of the Harvard School of Public Health, one out of Southern Illinois University, used at virtually every college in the country. Monitoring the Future, out of the University of Michigan, has been using the very same questions since 1976.</p>
<p>Statement #2 is false. There was a standard definition after the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism published its latest definition in February 2004, and a standard definition before. That same definition is used by all three surveys, used by virtually every school in the country. "Used by" is an understatement, as the schools have the surveys conducted by these organizations with standard definitions. Questions have been tested for more than three decades as to both validity and reliability. </p>
<p>What would make it easier of course, is if all schools openly published their data. By law, the campus alcohol and drug coordinator has to give you their data if you request it. But the survey agreements from all three groups allow the survey agencies to aggregate data, but not to release the data on individual schools. Some schools (Williams, Hobart & William Smith) are quite open about their data (and should be praised for it); others go to some lengths not to publish it widely (though sometimes it makes its way into campus newspapers.) Also, to be fair, Williams does NOT have fraternities; Swarthmore does. Williams</a> Record ARCHIVES: October 26, 2005</p>
<p>"Also noted that although binge drinking is higher for greeks, it appears that marijuana and prescription drug abuse is higher for those kids who live off campus."</p>
<p>Data indicate that both marijuana use and hard drug use are higher for students who live in fraternities than on-campus. The open question is whether fraternities and sororities are simply more attractive to students who engage in such behaviors, or (whether advertently or inadvertently) are promoters of it. </p>
<p>Of course, people's comfort levels will vary. And what is important to one student will be of less importance to another. The data don't lie - how people make use of them will differ radically, and "you pays your money you takes your choice."</p>
<p>
[quote]
Among top 50 LACs and Nat'l. U's, is it possible to name names?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Swarthmore is an example of a school with relatively low rates of binge drinking that has two fraternities remaining on campus. The frat members all live in regular dorms but have the use of two frat lodges on campus for parties and so forth. </p>
<p>The frats are the center of the drinking scene at Swarthmore, but the membership lacks the critical mass to impact the social scene. If anythng, the fraternities are under considerable peer pressure to fit in with overall campus, which they mostly do, although with varying degrees of consistency depending on the specific cohort. For example, one of the frats has hosted a large portion of the big annual LBGT party for the last two years.</p>
<p>If the frats came up for a student vote again (sororities were voted out in the 1930s), it would be close. A majority of the student body wants nothing to do with the frats, but a sizeable percentage of those takes a pragmatic view that moving the keg stands and beer pong out of the dorms and into to the frat house is a net plus.</p>
<p>The statistics from the study I posted show higher marijuana and prescription drug use by NON-GREEK students who live off campus. So Mini, are you saying that the 2005 report from the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University was wrong? Yeah, the kids in the dorms do less drugs...no surprise there.
I also commend Williams and other schools for releasing their data. But the fact that some schools don't share makes it hard to come down hard on the schools who are open to revealing their problems. There are plenty out there that are hiding. I asked lots of very direct questions on tours and I got mostly very vague answers.
I still think a good way to check it out any particular school is to hang out on a weekend to see how many kids are wandering around in REALLY bad shape. I'm sure this scene varies by campus.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Statement #1 is false.
[/quote]
I don't agree. There may be widely used national surveys, but they are not readily available. Show me data comparing Williams and Swarthmore for example (or Amherst and Chicago) that use the same survey and the same criteria and then I'll accept that the individual schools are above or below the national averages. This data either doesn't exist or isn't publicly available; therefore statistical comparisons are conflated and skewed.</p>
<p>[Edit to clarify: I don't mean that differences in ambience and character don't exist; they do. I just mean that they can't be quantified by black and white apples to apples data. If you want to compare SAT scores, use data. If you want to compare the affect of substance abuse on campus, visit or talk to current students or families who share your values.]</p>
<p>
[quote]
Statement #2 is false.
[/quote]
Again, there may be a national definition but that definition wasn't used in the many of the surveys (for example Williams' and Cornell's) that are widely quoted. So the criteria are not the same.
[quote]
Of course, people's comfort levels will vary. And what is important to one student will be of less importance to another. The data don't lie - how people make use of them will differ radically
[/quote]
With this, I agree wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I still think a good way to check it out any particular school is to hang out on a weekend to see how many kids are wandering around in REALLY bad shape. I'm sure this scene varies by campus.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Review the archives of the college newspaper or ask at the health center for the statistics on how many students are transported to the hospital with alcohol poisoning each year.</p>
<p>It is entirely what you make of it. I was a non-drinker, non-drug user in college and joined a sorority b/c there was very little social life on campus otherwise. I had a lot of fun and didn't drink till senior year. Never did the drug scene which then was just pot. You have to be firm but my sisters, and frat friends, too, never pressured me. And I was not the only one abstaining. These women are still my best friends so I think it turned out OK.</p>
<p>Thank you all for opinions, studies and links. I will definitely ask questions. (Fortunately my son is okay with that, he's cool that way.) Time for bed to be up before dawn!</p>
<p>"joined a sorority b/c there was very little social life on campus otherwise"</p>
<p>This is perhaps more of a concern for me regarding my kid than the drinking. I trust him to drink responsibly but I would hate for him to not have a social life because a bunch of other kids think he is too poor, or from the wrong sort of family, or whatever it is that determines whether someone is accepted into a fraternity or sorority.</p>
<p>This might help the OP--</p>
<p>For all the parents who are dead set against greek life...it's interesting to ponder how you will react (and perhaps change your views) if your son or daughter decides to go down this road. After all, it is their decision. Many of us (myself included) have kids who thought they would NEVER be part of that scene. And then we get the call one day...and we are forced to face a new direction in their lives that we never anticipated. My s goes to a school where the greek poplulation is around 10% so who would have thought?
Since my s joined, I can see both the good and the bad. And there's no simple description that applies to all. But I see very clearly that it's unfair to form an opinion about someone based on whether or not they are greek. Such venom out there! Give it a rest...
Momrath...excellent posts. I did surveys for years and I understand how folks can put too much faith in numbers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I see very clearly that it's unfair to form an opinion about someone based on whether or not they are greek.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why is that unfair? Greeks form opinions of each other based on which fraternity or sorority they pledge. I think it's equally fair that GDI's should be allowed to judge as well.</p>
<p>D, now starting her college search, finds a big Greek scene a turn-off. She doesn't drink or do drugs, has no interest in either, but that's not her issue: instead it's the inherent clique-ishness of fraternities and sororities. But this goes in many guises: Princeton's eating clubs, Smith's residential house system, etc. Any social order based on "we're in, you're out" is just a giant negative as far as she's concerned. Youthful idealism, no doubt, but I have no interest in squelching it. I hope she finds the perfect inclusive college social scene. Suggestions?</p>
<p>interesteddad - you clearly have an "us vs them" mentality on this. Maybe it's left over venom from a bad experience. I know you don't believe this, but some greek guys and girls can and do have friends who are not greek. Bottom line is you don't need a greek system to have clique-ishness. I went to a non-greek school and the groups that formed were extremely "cliquey" and exclusive. LOTS of binge drinking going on too - in that non-greek environment.
You clearly have a bias against greeks. There are many of you out there... unwilling to look behind the label...jumping to conclusions about character and clinging to old stereotypes. I pointed out that those who join greek organizations should view this as a negative. There's just no convincing you folks!<br>
So, Bob Woodward is an awful person. So was FDR. So was John Ritter. So was JFK. Let's throw in Jack Nicklaus and John Glen. Hey let's not forget the ladies. Eleanor Roosevelt, Katie Couric and Sheryl Crow. Awful. No need to luck further...they were greeks...that's all you need to know. Cheyney - now there's a GDI type we can all love...</p>