<p>Bclintonk, my attitude toward the Greek system when I was in school was much like your D's; I didn't care for the sense of elitism it carried at our school, which had a large Greek system. Having said that, their presence on campus didn't affect me that much, as they tended to live in a self-imposed bubble. In general, Greeks only interacted socially with other Greeks. The only time I noticed a direct effect on me was one semester when I had a lab partner from a fraternity. He brought to each lab a copy of a frat brother's lab report that had received an "A", and he copied the results to his lab book. He offered to share it with me, explaining they had extensive files of "A" papers and lab reports at his frat house. I declined to cheat with him, but he no doubt blew the curve for our class.</p>
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But this goes in many guises: Princeton's eating clubs, Smith's residential house system, etc. Any social order based on "we're in, you're out" is just a giant negative as far as she's concerned. Youthful idealism, no doubt, but I have no interest in squelching it. I hope she finds the perfect inclusive college social scene. Suggestions?
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<p>Community college?</p>
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There are dry frats, gay frats, Christian frats, and perhaps Rastafarian ones, all existing on equally diverse campuses - all are aggregated in the national data.
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<p>Which is why the national data are not useful for individual cases. Given the wide difference between frats at my <em>school</em>, I would not have considered aggregate data <em>for the school</em> very useful for individual cases. For instance, both the highest average living group GPA and the lowest usually went to frats (with the same ones showing up a lot), and, in campus surveys on attitudes toward LBGT students, it was frats that had both the best and the worst scores.</p>
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However, we noticed that ALL the tour guides were members. And there were 12 of them!
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<p>My observation (at one school, so it may not be representative) is that Greeks, encouraged by their houses, put a premium on gaining positions where they will interact with prospective and new freshmen. Because the continued existence of their houses depends on their ability to get their name out there in a positive way to such people, it was very important in their culture to seek such positions, in a way that it wasn't for dorm residents.</p>
<p>"D, now starting her college search, finds a big Greek scene a turn-off. She doesn't drink or do drugs, has no interest in either, but that's not her issue: instead it's the inherent clique-ishness of fraternities and sororities. "</p>
<p>I and my son have the same attitude. So far, we have found that Macalester and Hendrix are Greek-free, while Swarthmore almost is.</p>
<p>"Bottom line is you don't need a greek system to have clique-ishness."</p>
<p>While this is of course true, the difference with the Greeks is that they are institutionally-supported cliquishness.</p>
<p>Yale is another good example of a school that is relatively non-Greek. There are around 8 fraternities and 3 sororities, but other than the occasional weekend party their presence on campus is pretty minimal. Don't let anyone tell you that senior societies are Yale's version of Greek life/eating clubs. The whole Skull and Bones/society thing is blown WAY out of proportion. Keep in mind that these societies are ONLY for senior year, when students have an established group of friends anyway...it doesn't define the social experience. Also, most students don't participate.</p>
<p>Reading back over this thread and other similar threads, it seems to me that Greeks can be pretty good for those who are in them, and can be fairly neutral for those who have no interest in them. However, they are not so good for kids who would like to be in them but don't get in.</p>
<p>Also, unless things have changed, the secret societies at Yale are actually fairly secret, so they don't have much direct impact on campus life.</p>
<p>In our experience providing guidance, particularly during the college selection process - as the OP is doing - is absolutely the right thing to do. However, as toneranger indicates in post #37, we should keep in mind that at the end of the day they will make the decisions, not only about Greek life, but everything else.</p>
<p>One thing we have learned from our college level students is that they changed after leaving the house. They changed majors and they changed tastes in music and food. They also changed attitudes and opinions. I guess this is called growing up.</p>
<p>Like many in this thread (and board) we "knew" our kids were not the partying or drinking type and they were not fraternity or sorority material. Well, the "call" toneranger refers to came in last year and we are now the proud parents of a Greek.</p>
<p>We would love to say that she joined because of the support system and the opportunities that will open to her now and after she graduates, but she has told us that the partying, the drinking and, yes, the cliquishness of the system were big draws to her.</p>
<p>Are we thrilled about everything they do? No. Do we try to provide guidance? Yes. Does this work? Sometimes.</p>
<p>Of all the things that we provide to them the one they seem to appreciate the most when we trust them to make the right decision.</p>
<p>"I don't agree. There may be widely used national surveys, but they are not readily available. Show me data comparing Williams and Swarthmore for example (or Amherst and Chicago) that use the same survey and the same criteria and then I'll accept that the individual schools are above or below the national averages. This data either doesn't exist or isn't publicly available; therefore statistical comparisons are conflated and skewed."</p>
<p>All you have to do is ask for them. By law, they will have to give them to you. I do this for a living, so when I want I have access, but by part of the data-sharing agreement, I can't publish them unless the schools already have. You are not bound by the same arrangement. </p>
<p>"Again, there may be a national definition but that definition wasn't used in the many of the surveys (for example Williams' and Cornell's) that are widely quoted. So the criteria are not the same."</p>
<p>The criteria are EXACTLY the same when both use the Harvard School of Public Health's or SIU's survey, or participate in Monitoring the Future. In the last case, you can actually access the questions themselves on line. The questions are exactly the same.</p>
<p>Again, as noted, when it comes to frats and sororities, we can ignore three decades of data because we know that our kids only belong to those that were founded by and enforce the principles of Mother Theresa.</p>
<p>Hey, I wanted to go to Cornell and they wouldn't let me in. I don't hold a grudge though...even though they also rejected my h and then had the nerve to reject my s too! Guess we don't have what it takes.
I still think the cure for "Greek Phobia" is to have your child...who of course would NEVER join one of those groups...call you to tell you he or she is pledging. Happens to more of us than you would think. And, no we parents do not then become "la dee da" about these organizations. But we try harder, I think, to evaluate them objectively and shed any stereotypes we've hung onto in the past. Of course, you greek haters out there can avoid this unfortunate circumstance by refusing to pay for any college with a greek presence.
To the OP, please, please look beyond the surface on these things. Don't reject a good option just because greeks are there. Ask lots of questions, do some research, visit during the weekends. Then decide. Forget the folks who say "most greeks are bad" and the others who defend them without admitting that there are problems. There's a middle ground here...each institution deserves a careful look.</p>
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We're off to visit some schools for my S. He prefers a school with no frats, but many of the schools which fit his criteria do have them. Though social, he is not a drinker, and in fact, due to a medical condition, is not going to be able to drink alcohol. To students and parents alike, does a school with a high percentage of frats/sororities change the atmosphere very much on campus? Some schools we are looking at have between 30% and 40% of their men and women "go Greek." They always say "but that means 60% don't!" but still that number seems like a lot to me. My husband and I have no experience with this aspect of college. Any thoughts/insights would be greatly appreciated.
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<p>During Fall, I went to a few rush events with my roommate at about 5:00 PM. I didn’t really feel that excited about joining any of the houses I went to, so I came back at 6:30 PM and didn’t go to any more events that week. My roommate, however, came back at 11:00 PM – with two bids. (A bid is a formal invitation to join a fraternity.) He ended up joining a different fraternity a few days later.</p>
<p>During Spring, my roommate asked me to rush his fraternity. I was a bit hesitant, but he persuaded me to come when he said “free barbecue.” I actually got a bid, which I suspect was partially due to lower-than-normal student turnout. (It was really, really cold that entire month.) I accepted the bid, but I have decided not to join the fraternity.</p>
<p>Based on my experience, I think you shouldn’t write off Greek life so readily. Even though rush is indeed deceptive, I still recommend anyone to go just to see what it’s like. I say rush is deceptive because at least at Georgia Tech, all houses are required to be dry during rush week. That’s just not realistic of what the houses are actually like.</p>
<p>I have experience with the whole "outsider trying to fit in with a Greek-dominated campus." PM me if you're interested.</p>
<p>"I still think the cure for "Greek Phobia" is to have your child...who of course would NEVER join one of those groups...call you to tell you he or she is pledging."</p>
<p>I think what any one individual child does - even our own - has nothing whatsoever to do with overall impacts of fraternities and sororities on campus life, which is what the OP was inquiring about. </p>
<p>Fraternities and sororities are clearly fulfilling a felt need on some campuses, or they wouldn't have any members. What that need happens to be (as already noted) is subject to question, as is the impact of some students filling the need in this way is on campus culture as a whole.</p>
<p>Mini points out that he has the binge-drinking stats but is bound to secrecy, but the rest of us can just ask a college what its stats are.</p>
<p>Would those of you who do that then please publish those stats here? We're not bound by mini's agreement. We need an aggregate thread for the information. We should divide up the colleges so each one of us only has to call a couple.</p>
<p>A relevant and interesting article, albiet 3 or so years old.</p>
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Based on my experience, I think you shouldn’t write off Greek life so readily. Even though rush is indeed deceptive, I still recommend anyone to go just to see what it’s like. I say rush is deceptive because at least at Georgia Tech, all houses are required to be dry during rush week. That’s just not realistic of what the houses are actually like.
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<p>Well, it depends on the house. I also go to Georgia Tech, and rush being dry is rather representative of my fraternity overall. Less than half of the brothers drink at all, and of the ones that do, pretty much the only time we drink is on 21st birthdays and our 1 party per semester.</p>
<p>I should have been clearer. When I said, “that’s just not realistic of what the houses are actually like,” I did not mean that every house is big on drinking. I don’t think you read my statement that way, but I want to clarify nonetheless.</p>
<p>I believe you when you say that your house doesn’t drink much at all. However, would you say that your fraternity is an outlier when it comes to a dry house being representative of the house overall? And, would you say that the probability of there being at least one alcoholic beverage in your house during the regular semester is close to, if not, 1?</p>
<p>It's a nice option to have but it should not be dominant on campus.</p>
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I believe you when you say that your house doesn’t drink much at all. However, would you say that your fraternity is an outlier when it comes to a dry house being representative of the house overall? And, would you say that the probability of there being at least one alcoholic beverage in your house during the regular semester is close to, if not, 1?
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<p>I can't honestly say from first hand experience - I've been inside of another fraternity exactly once, and it was only for a few minutes. So I have no idea how much other fraternities drink, beyond hearsay. And we have a bar, so with the exception of rush (where we just stuff it all in the trunk of a car), there is always alcohol in the house. It's just only drunk on rare occasions.</p>
<p>I would guess that we are probably an outlier as far as drinking goes though.</p>