Frats and Sororities - Influence on Campus

Parents Forum
101

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I don't think so. So no, I don't think those Cornell frats are filled with a bunch of angels.

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<p>I never said they were angels. I just said that in my experiences and my friend's experiences at other schools it seemed that at top schools the frat boys weren't as stereotypical as frat boys at state schools. You have your extremes at both ends (super fratty boys at nerdy privates and super nerdy boys at drunk jock state schools) but in my experiences and what my friends tell me, frats at top schools aren't full of kids who barely graduate with GPAs and BACs around 0.50. </p>

<p>About the OP's concern about a kid who can't drink, I know someone at a frat at school who cannot drink due to his medication. His frat has a ton of members who drink heavily and others who do all sorts of drugs. Somehow this doesn't bother him or his brothers (many of whom I'm friends with). He is very involved in his frat and the fact that he doesn't drink hasn't stopped him from going to parties full of drunk college kids.</p>

<p>Also, people cite Swarthmore as a place where frats have little influence and it has little out of control partying/drinking one would see at a school full of frats. One of my good friends goes to Swat and he's told me that it is true that frats are basically non existent and don't have much sway in most people's social lives. He is not in one yet he still drinks a fair amount and smokes a fair amount of pot. The drug use at his school is just as prevalent as at my school where 30-40% of guys are in frats from what he tells me. Thats why I don't believe that frats have anything to do with excess drinking. If they are there then certain frats will attract the heavy drinkers. If they are not then the heavy drinkers will congregate in other settings to throw parties and drink.</p>

102

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/263851-another-tragic-student-death.html?highlight=frat%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/263851-another-tragic-student-death.html?highlight=frat&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/499707-hot-iron-face-skip-classes-til-burns-heal.html?highlight=hot+iron#post1060264324%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/499707-hot-iron-face-skip-classes-til-burns-heal.html?highlight=hot+iron#post1060264324&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/tulane-university/506440-tulane-fraternity-hazing-incident.html?highlight=hot+iron%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/tulane-university/506440-tulane-fraternity-hazing-incident.html?highlight=hot+iron&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>fraternity-related posts...</p>

103

<p>I go to Washington and Lee, which has one of the highest Greek rates in the nation. (about 80% of guys and 70% of girls). Although slightly biased because I am in a sorority, the Greek system is not detrimental to the school at all. Yes, the fraternities have lots of parties. However, we would continue to party just as much even if we didn't have the Greek system. Friends of mine at other schools party just as much and often in places that are much less safe than our familiar fraternity houses. I feel like some of you are basing your opinions of Greek life on movies like Animal House. Greek life adds a lot to a school socially, academically, and through philanthropies. Obviously the houses aren't filled with a bunch of party boys and girls; we all have minimum gpa's that we need to maintain. That being said, if your son or daughter is adamantly against Greek life, perhaps they shouldn't consider a school where fraternities and sororities are a big part of life</p>

104

<p>You know, I just read through pages and pages of alcohol-related deaths of college students from 2003 to now (posted on a website with details). I'm not posting the link here because I found it extremely disturbing. We're used to seeing these stories trickle in through the year...but to read them all at once was almost too much to take. Yes, there were quite a few mentions of greek organizations - both fraternities and sororities. But plenty from independent students as well...one that I remember well regarding a girl on a "dry campus". And quite a few related to celebrating 21st birthdays. There's so much pain in these stories...
So, to the OP, you should take care in finding the right social fit for your son who doesn't drink. But also count your blessings that he doesn't. Those of us who do have college-aged children who drink have to worry about these awful risks. As parents, many of us have done our jobs, warning our kids and helping them understand how dangerous excessive drinking is (even sharing some of the scarier CC stories). But many kids think they're invincible and can get involved in crazy things sometimes...especially after a few drinks. For the most part, these are GOOD kids who went overboard one night and couldn't come back. Some with very high GPAs, and student leader positions, - and some at top schools. Yeah, some will argue that it's a very small percentage of the overall college population. Tell that to the parents of these kids.</p>

105

<p>
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I go to Washington and Lee, which has one of the highest Greek rates in the nation. (about 80% of guys and 70% of girls). Although slightly biased because I am in a sorority, the Greek system is not detrimental to the school at all.

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<p>Really? Not detrimental?</p>

<p>The most recent CORE survey conducted by Washington and Lee suggests some very serious problems:</p>

<p>Administration</a> cringing at binge drinking - News</p>

<p>Washington and Lee has one of the two highest binge drinking rates I've seen (along with Penn State).</p>

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The percentage of students who reported binge drinking at least once in the two weeks prior to taking the survey has been slowly decreasing, however it is still significantly higher than the national average. </p>

<p>In 2005 60.3 percent of W&L respondents reported having taken part in binge drinking, whereas 48.5 percent of all college students across the country reported have done it. Binge drinking only decreased slightly from 61.9 percent in 2004 to 60.3 percent at W&L.

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<p>You may not think 60% of the entire student body binge drinking at least once in the two weeks prior to the survey is not detrimental to the school at all, but most people, including your own college's administration, would consider that very serious problem.</p>

<p>For example, high binge drinking rates correlate with sexual assault, another area where W&L is well above the national average.</p>

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A major concern of the administration is the area of sexual assault. Though many of the statistics decreased, "one assault is too many," Watkins said. Among females, sexual touching against their will, qualifying under the legal term of sexual battery dropped from 22.6 percent to 21 percent; however, it is almost double the national average of 11.9 percent. Attempted sexual penetration against their will, or attempted rape, also decreased from 8.5 percent to 6.0 percent, about 2 percent more than the national average of 3.9 percent.

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106

<p>One of the factors that predicts binge drinking in college is binge drinking in high school. Wouldn't kids pick schools where they are more likely to be able to continue that behavior? If kids are binge drinking while living at home in high school, what's the best way to get a handle on it in college?</p>

107

<p>55.5% past year alcohol blackouts at W&L. Sheesh! (that's 15% higher than Duke's, which is the highest I have ever previously seen.) What's the fun of that? (It may be why the attempted rape numbers went down - by definition, blackout means memory is blacked out.) But sexual battery at double the national average....</p>

<p>Attempted rape in most states in punishable by one to ten years in the state pen. In Virginia it is a Class 4 felony. Attempted aggravated sexual battery is a Class 6 felony. Whether they get caught or not is beside the point.</p>

108

<p>Toneranger:</p>

<p>There is not a college administrator in the country who doesn't thank god every night before going to bed if another day passed without a student dying from alcohol poisoning on his or her campus.</p>

<p>If you want another sobering wake up call, dig around and find the number of alcohol poisoning hospital transports, many of them at near fatal or fatal levels. Twice in the last five or six years, my alma mater has transported a HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT on an overnight prospective student visit to the hospital with BAC levels in excess of .40. Talk about a lawsuit....</p>

<p>Nobody has the answer. Different things work (or don't work) at different colleges. To me, the whole issue of social scene is the most under-considered factor in college selection, bar none. I strongly believe that prospective students and their parents need to be having explicit (and reality-based) discussions about the kind of environment they prefer and then holding these colleges' feet to the fire. Start including the binge drinking rate in the USNEWS ranking system and see how fast college presidents can jump.</p>

<p>What's terribly unfortunate is that we collectively send a false message to our kids -- that unless a college is a big-time party school, the students don't have any fun. That's baloney. You don't have to have 60% binge drinking rates and a dozen hospitalizations every weekend for college students to drink plenty of beer, yuk it up, and have plenty of fun. It doesn't take 21 shots of whiskey to have fun and, somehow, the whole framework of college social life is not being communicated to our kids.</p>

109

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55.5% past year alcohol blackouts at W&L. Sheesh!

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<p>Can you imagine spending $40,000 a year to send your kid off to a place where more than half the students had an alcohol blackout in the past year alone?</p>

110

<p>As long as folks know going in. I can't tell you how many pm's I've received from students (and their parents) attending our common alma mater bemoaning that they didn't know this before. (and no, there are NO frats or sororities). </p>

<p>Kids can always find non-alcoholic fun on a campus if they look hard enough for it. My question is always why they should have to.</p>

<p>"Can you imagine spending $40,000 a year to send your kid off to a place where more than half the students had an alcohol blackout in the past year alone?"</p>

<p>I can't, but obviously a lot of other folks can. Hey, that's why there's a market. Different folks for different strokes. As long as they know going in.</p>

<p>(Would love to see W&L put the article, in which administrators are at least partially "pleased" by their progress, on their website.)</p>

111

<p>I looked at some of the stats provided for my alma mater - William and Mary. According to the 2007-08 Family Handbook, about 27% of the student body joins sororities and fraternities. About 36% of the population reported binge drinking - having 5 drinks in a row during the 2 weeks prior to the survey.</p>

112

<p>Does it surprise you that they are slightly lower than the "magic" 30% in the frat/sorority department, and slightly lower than average in the binge drinking one?</p>

113

<p>
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One of the factors that predicts binge drinking in college is binge drinking in high school. Wouldn't kids pick schools where they are more likely to be able to continue that behavior?

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<p>Yes. That's how different colleges evolve to have different campus cultures over time.</p>

<p>However, the survey data does show that a non-binge drinker in high school is more likely to binge drink at a high-binge drinking college than at a low binge college. So, there's the issues of attacting drunks and the issue of drunks begating more drunks.</p>

114

<p>No Mini it doesn't surprise me. I don't disagree that drinking is more prevalent in fraternities and sororities. My point all along has been that just because there is some Greek presence on campus, a school shouldn't be ruled out completely. I guess my experience at WM wasn't typical because of the smaller number of Greeks. Another factor is that we certainly rarely had anything to celebrate with regard to sports so there was no tailgating - talk about drink fests!!</p>

<p>I just found that the school my D will attend in the fall had a 60% binge drinking rate in 2006. Greek participation is about 12% though - I guess the whole campus is one big fraternity.</p>

115

<p>It's a little known fact, but the Greeks are directly responsible for the desire of students to drink. If you eliminate the Greek system, this ridiculous artificial desire to consume alcohol will be eliminated.'</p>

<p>Orrrrr....</p>

<p>Greeks are more comfortable with their drinking, and more likely to report their own drinking accurately and more likely to fill out the surveys at all.</p>

116

<p>cartera:</p>

<p>I'm not surprised that W&L has a relatively low binge drinking rate. It has many factors that correlate with lower drinking rates.</p>

<p>For one thing, the student body tilts pretty solidly female. Second, it is not a big sports school. Third, it is has a notably demanding academic program. Fourth, it's not in the northeast or midwest.</p>

<p>And, while W&M's location defies easy description, I would argue that it has the characteristics of an urban setting in the sense that college students constantly interact with the outside world in that location. I hesitate to say "the real world" in downtown Williamsburg, but the world exists on a daily basis around them.</p>

117

<p>Penn State has recently updated their survey on drinking habits. They do the survey regularly and publish the results. Some of the numbers here are not pretty but I commend them for being open about this.
I noticed they are using a different definition of binge drinking - 5 drinks in a 2 hour period vs. 5 drinks in a sitting (which could last for many hours). They also seem to be focusing more on drinks per hour.
Student</a> Affairs Research & Assessment </p>

<p>ALL schools should post data like this...unfortunately they do not. So it becomes hard to do comparisons. </p>

<p>Interested Dad - yes, we're paying for my son's education but it was HIS choice where to go. Would you have us putting a list of "approved" schools in front of him? Would I eliminate those schools that try to hide their problems by not participating in surveys? You make is sound so simple - why would you pay $$XXX for THAT kind of place? Well, my s would absolutely HATE a place like Swarthmore. Not his cup of tea. He loves a big place and really enjoys getting behind sports teams (local and yes at the college level). Yes, we worry about him and yes, we have pointed out all sorts of risks, but bottom line, it was HIS decision. I can't see it happening any other way.</p>

118

<p>"I noticed they are using a different definition of binge drinking - 5 drinks in a 2 hour period vs. 5 drinks in a sitting (which could last for many hours). They also seem to be focusing more on drinks per hour."</p>

<p>On the definition (remember, I do this for a living): in February 2004, the Advisory Council to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism put forth a new definition, which was basically the amount of alcohol necessary for a student to reach a BAC of .08. For most males, that would be around 5 drinks in two hours, for females around 4. But, in theory it could vary.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, when they field tested, researchers discovered that either way the question was asked (5/4 in one sitting or episode) or within a set time period, the percentage of students reporting binge drinking came out virtually the same (which surprised some, but not others). As a result, the national surveys have stayed with the older formulation, but individual school surveys may or may not use the NIAAA one.</p>

<p>As it turns out, from experimental data, they also discovered that, either way the question was asked, the percentage self-reporting binge drinking is a significant underestimate. (you get a little feel for that in the W&L article.) Two reasons: they discovered that students self-reporting 4 drinks in a sitting - and hence not considered binge drinkers - on average had 5. And when they asked students to measure out drinks, the median drink size was 1.8x the standard drink. In other words, the median student self-reporting four drinks (and hence not reporting binge drinking) actually had 5 x 1.8 = 9 drinks. And half of these 'non-bingers' had more!</p>

119

<p>
[quote]
As long as folks know going in. I can't tell you how many pm's I've received from students (and their parents) attending our common alma mater bemoaning that they didn't know this before. (and no, there are NO frats or sororities).

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<p>Oh yeah? Well, I can’t tell you how many pm’s I’ve received from current students and parents of current students who have told me how happy they are that they or their children chose Williams and how the affect of problematic drinking is serously overstated on this board. </p>

<p>I also can’t buy the excuse that you know what you know and you can cite figures when it suits you and you can’t cite figures when it doesn’t suit you, even if you do “do this for a living”. You can’t have it both ways: either cite your sources or skip the statistics. </p>

<p>I'm still doubtful that you have figures from Williams that ask the same question and use the same criteria as other schools. </p>

<p>For example, in this recent post <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/533900-top-schools-without-lot-drinking.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/533900-top-schools-without-lot-drinking.html&lt;/a> you say:</p>

<p>
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As a big a concern as binge drinking is, what may have an equal impact on the campus environment is the "heavy drinking" rate (defined as two or more drinks nearly every day, or binges 3-4 times in a two week period). What this tells you is the extent to which drinking isn't confined to the weekends. At Williams (where both ID and I are alums) it is 29%, just a little lower than the binge rate at Swarthmore. So you can immediately see how large the differences in campus environments can be among two schools that, academically, might on the surface seem so similar.

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<p>Actually the 29% figure came from an internal survey conducted several years ago at Williams that classified “heavy drinkers” as someone who drinks “10 or more drinks per WEEK.” It did not indicate “two or more drinks nearly every day, or binges 3-5 times in a two week period.” That may be your definition, but it was not the definition used in this survey!</p>

<p>To take this 29% and compare it to whatever binge rate Swarthmore reported from an entirely different survey and to then conclude that Williams binge rate must be astronomical is exactly what I mean by conflating statistics to achieve an agenda. </p>

<p>In the same survey Williams reported that 71% of the students reported binge drinking at once in the last year, BUT they defined binge drinking as 'having consumed five or more drinks in one sitting" NOT in a two hour period. If you look at it from the glass half empty aspect (sorry for the misguided metaphor) you might conclude that 71% of the students line up five shots every night of the year and chug-a-lug. If you tend toward the half full school you might be pleased that your child only had 5 drinks over a course of an evening once a year. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.</p>

<p>I’m the first to admit that Williams isn’t for everyone. I’m also the first to admit that some kids there drink more than is good for them or their peers, but I'd still like to see statistics quoted accurately and in correct context. </p>

<p>I would also accept that kids at Williams drink more than they do at Swarthmore or at any of the womens colleges, but I wouldn’t accept that you would find a substantial difference in the level of drinking at Williams and at other top tier colleges and universities -- whether they have a Greek system or not.</p>

<p>Substance abuse is a terrible thing at college or at any point in life, but before parents or students start crossing names off their lists because of scare-mongering statistics they should do their own due diligence.</p>

120

<p>i went to a school dominated by the frat/sorority scene. Although I met life-long friends there (all independents) and got a top-notch eduation, in retrospect, I would have gone elsewhere. One scene sticks in my mind - on our hall group, a girl was anxious to rush a sorority since she was good friends with most of the girls in it. It seemed a shoo-in, but the national org wouldn't approve it because of her religion. The local made her an "honorary" member, and involved her in whatever activities they could. A lot of tears and a life lesson that shouldn't have happened. Apparently, "background checks" were performed before girls were allowed in certain sororities. </p>

<p>Shouldn't college be a time to bring diverse groups of people together rather than segregating them into houses of same-type people? Isn't that part of the learning experience?</p>

<p>The frat parties were closed to outsiders, and reputed to be quite rowdy. There was an incident at a frat party where a girl on my hallgroup got her head flushed in a toilet. She was quite shaken up. That wasn't reported. (Today it certainly would be). And the drink of choice was grain alcohol.</p>

<p>Maybe things are different now ...</p>