<p>OP: I think the real question for your kid is: Will he feel weird not participating in a fraternity if they are a large presence on campus? Will "not belonging" be a stone in his shoe? If so, select a school with a smaller presence.</p>
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post #51, i totally agree. i doubt anyone would reject putting cornell on their college list just because we have the 2nd largest greek system in the country.
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<p>Actually, a lot of people would. Probably more potential customers reject colleges with big frat scenes than seek them out. Why do you think so many of the elite colleges and universities either got rid of their frats, or at least pretended to? It's bad for business.</p>
<p>xiggi - where are those numbers?
wjz.com</a> - Alcohol Ruled A Factor In College Student's Death
Just found this one on a quick search - hmmm - no frat mentioned. I could find bunches of these but I wouldn't dare make any statistical assumptions based on those individual stories.<br>
These arguments are getting crazy.
4-Year Residential college students drink (lots) more, and are involved in more sexual assaults then kids who attend community colleges or who live at home and attend commuter colleges. Mini, am I correct here?
So, why oh why do we even think about sending our kids to these places? If we can lump all frats into one big category, why not lump all 4-year residential colleges into one big category too? Why even bother checking out each individual school? They're evil cesspools...all of them. Right? Hey the aggregate data is there.</p>
<p>"4-Year Residential college students drink (lots) more, and are involved in more sexual assaults then kids who attend community colleges or who live at home and attend commuter colleges. Mini, am I correct here?"</p>
<p>Yes. But students who are in fraternities and sororities drink LOTS more, and are involved in more sexual assaults (both as assaulters and victims) than those housed on the same campus who are not. HOWEVER, the caveat (as the overview I posted indicated) is that we don't know whether fraternities and sororities promote those proclivities, or simply attract those students who are drawn to them. (The evidence cited in the Higher Education Center link suggests both.)</p>
<p>The OP asked for advice regarding fraternity scenes for a student who, for medical reasons, can't drink ANY alcohol. The reality is that, for most schools, between 15-25% of students are total abstainers. So the question is whether a school with a high percentage of students in fraternities (which is one of 8 characteristics of high bingeing schools) would be a good choice. And the answer (independent of other characteristics of a school, academic or otherwise) is that it might be, but he should look hard. Will the student feel left out? Are there truly dry fraternities he could join? Will he find himself tripping over lots of drunken people? Does he enjoy feeling "different", or does he have difficulty coping with difference? How robust is the NON-drinking scene? Is he interested in athletics? How closely tied, in that particular school, are athletics and alcohol use, or athletics and fraternities? Are most of the other total abstainers religious? (and is he?) Would he feel comfortable with that?</p>
<p>There's lots to consider, and it's hardly worth beating around the bush regarding the tie between fraternities/sororities and alcohol/drug use. If he can take that as a given (with the usual Mother Theresa exceptions - though I don't know if she drank or not), he can get on to the more important questions.</p>
<p>I think kids need to realize that frats at Cornell are very different from frats at big state schools. The guys in frats were still smart and hard working enough to get into Cornell. it's not like all of that goes out the window once they get to college.</p>
<p>My friends who aren't greek drink just as much (and some more) than my friends who are greek. I go to the second or third most greek Ivy and don't really see any problems with frats as a non greek. I looked at my friends in frats at school and then look at my old high school classmates who are now in frats at my local state school. I would say that most of my friends at school wouldn't like the frats at my state school and most of my old high school classmates would think that most of my school's frats are too nerdy.</p>
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I am simply calling into question your claim that all fraternities, everywhere, are evil and ought to be done away with.
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<p>Is that exactly what I wrote? That all fraternities, everywhere, are evil?</p>
<p>or did I start my original post with: </p>
<p>Some fraternities serve deserving purposes; more sororities do the same. Next to that, you have a huge number of out of control organizations that promote activities ranging from the mildly indecent to the outright criminal. Fraternities have been directly responsible for several deaths and indirectly responsible for a number of deaths that would make you rethink the death toll in Iraq. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, there are no good solutions. Schools that have prohibited frat houses only see them migrate to a location just off campus where there is no possible control.</p>
<p>venka - my brother was in a frat house at Cornell that was kicked off campus.
My son at a big state school went to visit his brothers at Cornell and was appalled at the condition of their house. They had numerous violations and were close to being booted as well. Smart? ... I don't think so. So no, I don't think those Cornell frats are filled with a bunch of angels.
Mini - what about those 4 year residential colleges? Do they promote these activities or do they just attract students who are drawn to them? I see it as a matter of degree. Also there are just too many examples of schools without greeks that have drinking problems. Come on - your alma mater is one of them!
If you're THAT concerned about the data - community colleges are looking pretty good.</p>
<p>"Schools that have prohibited frat houses only see them migrate to a location just off campus where there is no possible control."</p>
<p>Actually, not all. ID's and my alma mater not only banished fraternities (and took over their property) but made membership in a fraternity a condition for college dismissal. (There is, in fact, one supposedly secret fraternity across the state line, but it has had fewer than 5 members.)</p>
<p>"Mini - what about those 4 year residential colleges? Do they promote these activities or do they just attract students who are drawn to them? I see it as a matter of degree. Also there are just too many examples of schools without greeks that have drinking problems. Come on - your alma mater is one of them!"</p>
<p>As noted, high fraternity/sorority participation is just one of 8 conditions related to high bingeing schools. BUT, independent of that, fraternity/sorority participation increases likelihood, on the same campus, of alcohol/drug abuse and related phenomena, relative to others residing on the same campus. A good question, which I can't answer, is - eliminating the impact of fraternities/sororities on the data, what do the campuses look like without them? The little suggestion I see in the data is that, at least at some schools, they have a "magnet effect", rather like the one ID referred to at Swarthmore, where Otis has a place to play, part-time Otises can go to party, and the rest of the campus is dryer as a result. That would be a really interesting study question, and I've never heard of anyone studying it.</p>
<p>Answers to a question like this could actually help the OP.</p>
<p>I believe that my alma mater would be well-served to turn the frat houses back over to the frats and rekindle a greek system on campus comparable to that at Dartmouth. It would solve the difficulty the school has had in finding a satisfactory housing system in the forty years since frats were abolished and best serve the prefered campus culture.</p>
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Fraternities have been directly responsible for several deaths and indirectly responsible for a number of deaths that would make you rethink the death toll in Iraq.
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I agree that there are frats that serve deserving purposes. I agree that some frats participate in illegal and even deadly activities. But it seems your order of magnitude is off - it seems that you think most frats are bad (otherwise you wouldn't be thinking about such drastic solutions like banning membership). </p>
<p>I personally think your comparison with the Iraq War is a little over-the-top, and I too would like to see your statistics to back up your statement.</p>
<p>xiggi: Semantics indeed - but I apologize if I put words (one word, really) in your mouth. Then again, it was you who decided to compare anyone who dared reply to your claims to Lucifer...should I go check in the mirror and see if I suddenly grew some horns and a pointy tail?</p>
<p>"I believe that my alma mater would be well-served to turn the frat houses back over to the frats and rekindle a greek system on campus comparable to that at Dartmouth. It would solve the difficulty the school has had in finding a satisfactory housing system in the forty years since frats were abolished and best serve the prefered campus culture."</p>
<p>I suspect there are many, many non-bingeing students who would be much happier as a result. (They've put so much money into their housing conundrum over the years, with not much to show for it.)</p>
<p>So Williams did eliminate frats many years ago. And what was the long term impact on binge drinking? I thought heavy drinking was still a big concern there.
So maybe we look at those schools that did take that step to see how they made out.
Hey, one other thing to consider would be to eliminate big-time sports teams. I know there's some form of correlation there with drinking. Not being sarcastic here - just want to point out that it's not just the frats. As you said Mini, lots of other factors contribute. With sports teams, again, it's a good and bad equation. I see stronger spirit and community on campuses with strong sports teams...along with the heavy drinking. It's never simple.</p>
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Then again, it was you who decided to compare anyone who dared reply to your claims to Lucifer...should I go check in the mirror and see if I suddenly grew some horns and a pointy tail?
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<p>Xiggi was referring to a College Confidential poster with the screen name "Lucifer". Lucifer was quite adamant here in proclaiming his his highly developed ability to binge drink safely, first in high school and later in college. He was quite put out by nervous nellie parents who didn't mind their own business and who suggested that his behavior was destructive. If I recall, Lucifer posted here just a few days before he died of alcohol poisoning his freshman year of college.</p>
<p>"So mini, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Williams eliminate frats many years ago? And what was the long term impact?"</p>
<p>No, it isn't simple. As I said, it is relatively simple to see what goes on in fraternities/sororities in aggregate, and compare to those on campus who aren't in or residing in same. (And, yes, there are the Mother Theresa outlyers.) It is less simple to see how frats as a single factor contribute to campus climate. My alma mater has 7 of the 8 characteristics of a high bingeing school - the one it doesn't have is frats. However, until two years ago, the housing system was such that the "houses" were essentially randomly-drawn frats. Since the general drinking rate was so high to begin with, one of the impacts of randomly drawn "non-frats" is likely to increase the drinking rate for everyone. So the college has now spent upwards of $5 million to try to rebuild a housing and social system that looks more like a Yale-style collegiate one, and less like a Dartmouth-style fraternity one. I wish them well (the very shape of the housing stock works against them). (ID may be right: abandoning the old frat houses to alcohol and drug using fraternities might actually promote a better climate on campus generally - I'm not there, and I'm sure nothing like that is in the cards.)</p>
<p>(Oh, the long-term impact: eliminated most, but not all, vestiges of racism and anti-Semitism on campus, and strengthened alumni ties to the college as opposed to the fraternities, which were very, very strong.)</p>
<p>There are campuses that have gone totally dry - including fraternities, with raids and the whole nine yards. Not something I would prefer, though for purposes of reducing the impact of alcohol on campuses, it seems to have worked.</p>
<p>My younger d's college is totally dry - which doesn't mean there isn't any drinking. It doesn't. Apparently, however, it has massively reduced the amount of public drinking, which is what the administration was most concerned about. (She didn't choose it for that reason, though she likes the idea). They do have a small fraternity/sorority presence.</p>
<p>mini, how can there be DRINKING at a TOTALLY DRY college? thats an oxymoron. or maybe you want to believe that it is totally dry? </p>
<p>and OMG you let her go to a school with frats and sororities? woooooow. i cant believe that after reading what you have been posting here.</p>
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mini, how can there be DRINKING at a TOTALLY DRY college?
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<p>A dry campus doesn't allow alcohol. Not every student follows this rule.</p>
<p>"Totally Dry" means the policies of the college, not the behavior of the students. And even that comes in two flavors: 1) No alcohol allowed on premises for those under 21 - sometimes enforced, sometimes unenforced. Penalties can range from alcohol/drug education classes to being sent home (happens at some strict Christian colleges). 2) No alcohol allowed for ANYONE - including those over 21 - even the college President - on campus, and enforced in college recognized fraternities. Various levels of enforcement as well. </p>
<p>"and OMG you let her go to a school with frats and sororities? woooooow. i cant believe that after reading what you have been posting here."</p>
<p>I don't see why. As the OP is interested in doing, we checked on their role in campus life (as best we could). As ID has noted, having a small fraternity presence can be an advantage - for students who want to drink and live there, for occasional partyers who have a place to go, and for those who don't want any part of that scene. We'll just have to see.</p>
<p>(and, no, it isn't Swarthmore! The campus climate at Swarthmore would likely freak her out more than a really big party school! Luckily those aren't the only two choices. And if she wants to join a sorority, well, as long as she pays for it....)</p>
<p>mini - of course now I'm hoping that she DOES join a sorority. Just to see if you might soften a bit...
If she calls you, would you send her all those studies to try to convince her otherwise?<br>
We don't pay a penny either...my son knew not to even ask.</p>
<p>There's nothing to soften. I've posted data, and various things and questions for the OP to consider in looking for a campus for a student who is medically unable to tolerate any alcohol. That's what she asked for. </p>
<p>As to the sorority, if there was a dry one founded by Mother Theresa, I'm sure she'd consider it. And who knows? I might be surprised! (but I know my kids pretty well - sometimes too well - so I highly doubt it. Both of my kids are much more straitlaced than my wife or I am - sometimes we wonder how we got them!)</p>