<p>Does anyone have an idea of what the freshman engineering retention rate is at UIIC? What percentage of engineering students don't make it to the beginning of their sophomore year? Any help or insight would be appreciated.</p>
<p>Well I just spoke with a person who said that she would email me the information, but she’d have to look into studies they’ve done in the past. But, I’m curious. Is there a particular percentage that you’re looking for in order to compare it to? What would a percentage above or below that average number mean to you?</p>
<p>Thank you Balthezar. Hopefully you’ll remember to share the results of your email.</p>
<p>I’m looking for two percentages.
- Freshman engineering retention rate
According to the following OSU website the national average is 77%
[Engineering</a> Points of Pride :: College of Engineering](<a href=“http://engineering.osu.edu/futurestudents/pointsofpride.php?z=1]Engineering”>http://engineering.osu.edu/futurestudents/pointsofpride.php?z=1)</p>
<ol>
<li>Six year engineering graduation rate
I’m not sure what the national average is yet</li>
</ol>
<p>IMHO…an engineering programs that retains a higher percentage of their freshman engineering students is doing something correctly. Either matching their admissions standards to the difficulty of their program, or employing support programs that help (encourage) success within that first critical year. While engineering programs also lose students during their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years, I think most will agree that the first year usually represents the largest number of drop outs. Again that is my opinion, but it is one of the considerations that my son and I will use in selecting the “right” program for him. Obviously national reputation, six year graduation rate and campus “feel” will also factor into the decision.</p>
<p>I disagree with the last part of that post. Some schools with high retention rates just because they have a weaker curriculum, others because they have a higher average quality of student, or others because the offer a lot of help.</p>
<p>Here’s the thing, it isn’t a college’s job to hold the hands of it’s students. Most if not all schools, including the big ones, offer plenty of opportunities for helping out the students, it’s just that at large schools have a lower percentage of students who actually utilize said opportunities. They are there for whoever wants them though.</p>
<p>
While I agree with this part of your post, I don’t see how it is at odds with my statement that “engineering programs that retains a higher percentage of their freshman engineering students is doing something correctly”.</p>
<p>Schools that match their admissions standards to their “weaker” curriculum are not necessarily doing something incorrectly. Their courses must still meet the ABET standard and the reputation of the school/program (and value of the diploma) will be addressed by the hiring decisions of future employers.</p>
<p>Schools that recruit and admit a “higher average quality of student” are again doing something correctly. They are bringing in students that can handle the difficulty of their classes.</p>
<p>I can’t imagine how a school that offers “a lot of help” so that their students are successful could be doing something incorrectly. College / engineering programs are supposed to be about educating not abusing or “weeding out”. We are not talking about training fighter pilots or Navy Seals that have to operate under some seriously tough conditions, we are talking about engineers that need to be able to think and usually work in teams. How to find answers. </p>
<p>I don’t know where the idea came from that “it isn’t a college’s job to hold the hands of it’s students”. It is a college’s job to educate. How they do that (including how much support or hand holding) is up to the college and how much students/parents are willing to pay. What is important is that at the end of the process (graduation) the student has mastered the knowledge necessary to perform the job. </p>
<p>The “character” development issues are not something colleges should be (IMHO) involved in and are an area they are even more poorly suited for than “hand holding”.</p>
<p>I guess I don’t think any school ought to be dumbing down their program for their admissions standards. I don’t want anything I depend on to be designed by someone who came from a watered down program at any rate.</p>
<p>^^^
And as a parent, or an employer or a voting member for the ABET standards you can certainly make that choice. I believe that if the graduating engineer meets the ABET requirements then the market place will limit yours (and my) exposure to bad engineers designing products that we depend on. I don’t believe colleges will graduate “dumbed” downed engineers and I doubt employers will hire people that can’t do the job. </p>
<p>Do you think that engineering must have a high failure rate to be a good program? Do you believe that offering a lot of support to engineering students hurts their educational process?</p>
<p>This is the response from Engineering:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There you go. Hope it helps.</p>
<p>No a program does not jaw to have a low retention rate to be good. That is just silly. However, I don’t agree with any college who waters down their curriculum to match their applicant pool. That’s just not right. I have no idea if many or any colleges do, but i don’t agree with it if it does happen.</p>
<p>^^^
Can you “water down” your curriculum below the ABET standards and still have your program accredited? I am not suggesting that any college match their curriculum to their admissions standards. I have suggested that a college should match its admissions standards to their curriculum and the amount of support they are willing to provide to freshman (and other) students.</p>
<p>Thanks Balthezar! It does help.</p>
<p>I didn’t ask about the 6 year retention rate Ag, but they had no problem answering, to the point of even looking through past studies to come up with the number that I provided. I still think the statistic is of marginal use. My son also was admitted to Purdue Engineering, and they have a slightly different philosophy about admitting applicants in that they will admit students with overall lower stats (ACT/SAT, HSPR, GPA). This doesn’t necessarily mean the Engineering Curriculum is of a lower quality. It might make their retention rate lower, however, but at least they give the kid a shot at getting into a good program without having the highest stats. They also are known for a very good first year assistance program, and excellent financial aid for OOS students who score well enough on standardized tests. They were a finalist for my son, because of those specific attributes, as well as their national engineering reputation. Michigan, on the other hand, while a top-notch all-around school, as well as a fantastic engineering program, didn’t make the finals for us, because they essentially said “Hey, it’s 48K per year. Here’s a couple of loans.” So, I said “See ya!”.</p>
<p>Anyhow, good luck with your son Ag.</p>
<p>For freshman engineering class of 2008, engineering lost 9% the first year (varies from year to year) who left the university and didn’t enroll sophomore year (August 2009). A different issue is how many other freshman switched from engineering to another college at UIUC. Because of the process used, the figure you actually get, less than 4%, is misleading. You can transfer from one college to another at UIUC beginning after first year but not before. You can make your first request to transfer during second semester freshman year, about midway through, and have it granted by end of first year so you start second year in the new college. That group leads to that less than 4% figure. But reality is that most freshman who actually decide to transfer from engineering to another college won’t request to do so until after they get done with first year (and many of those wait to after first semester sophomore year). That means they cannot request a transfer until just before classes begin their sophomore year (and through first week of sophomore year) because that is when the next transfer request period occurs following the one that occured during second semester freshman year. That group (much larger) usually does not get approval and records officially changed until after classes begin sophomore year with the result that they are counted as being in engineering when they started as sophomores but for all intents and purposes they are really no longer in engineering. You also have many that decide to leave after starting sophomore year or transfer first semester sophomore year into another UIUC college for second semester. Thus having a “freshman” retention rate number in engineering really does not tell you the actual story. </p>
<p>The more important number is how many are gone by beginning of third year since a large percentage of those who get through two years of engineering actually go on to graduate from engineering. For UIUC, the percentage of engineering freshman who have either left the university or switched colleges by beginning of third year is in the 25% and somewhat higher range. Its six year graduation rate for freshman who begin in engineering and actually graduate from engineering is about 66%. Note, that I believe many other universities have similar “time of counting” issues when it comes to determining freshman who start in engineering and begin sophomore year in the same college and thus when you see high retention rates you need to be a little skeptical.</p>
<p>^^^
Excellent post drusba and your evaluation is probably a better method of viewing freshman/sophomore engineering retention.</p>
<p>Balthezar: Sounds as though my son and I are following in you and your son’s footsteps.
We are also considering UIUC, Michigan, Purdue and PSU. Getting into Michigan from OOS is both difficult and expensive. If he is accepted we’ll have to take a serious look at the FA (probably non-existent) and bottom line costs. That said, Michigan is suppose to have a top notch engineering program and a great campus experience (other than snow).</p>
<p>I wasn’t aware that Purdue had “a very good first year assistance program, and excellent financial aid for OOS students who score well enough on standardized tests”. All I’d heard is that the acceptance standards were not too high, they had a great engineering reputation and that they supposedly “weeded out” a lot of engineering students in the first year. Of course based on drusba’s post it may actually be rough freshman and sophomore years. The following email that was sent to me today from Purdue in response to my inquiry about freshman retention and graduation rates.
Interesting (in my opinion) title of the person responding.</p>
<hr>
<p>The latest data we have is as follows:</p>
<p>First year retention to engineering = 85.7%
First year retention to university = 91.8%</p>
<p>Graduation Rates:
Engineering 4 yrs 24.32%</p>
<p>5 yrs 49.97%</p>
<p>6 yrs 58.04%</p>
<p>University 4 yrs 33.14%</p>
<p>5 yrs 70.37%</p>
<p>6 yrs 77.90%</p>
<p>Roxanne Martin
Retention Consultant
College of Engineering
Purdue University
Neil Armstrong Hall of Engineering</p>
<p>Consider this also Ag. At Illinois, you can get accepted directly to your program of choice, not just First Year Engineering, where you apply to the program of your choice after you first year results are in. Just another variable that we didn’t have to worry about with Illinois. And you’re right, I wouldn’t count on much financial aid from either Illinois or Michigan, but Purdue’s Trustee Scholarship was a good deal for OOS kids, and that made it competitive with UIUC, our instate school.</p>
<p>Balthezar: How is the engineering support at UIUC? Do they have any programs similar to the one you mentioned about Purdue (first year assistance program)?
BTW - I’m in PA so Indiana, Illinois and Michigan will all be OOS.</p>
<p>Purdue’s programs are campus-based, and they have an office that handles them. They are Student Transition and Registration (STAR), and Boiler Gold Rush which occurs after arrival in the week before your courses start. </p>
<p>Now, the Illinois equivalent of Star and BGR is simply called Summer Registration, which is a full day orientation and registration event. Prior to arriving on campus for summer registration, engineers are required to take some online placement tests (Math, Chem, Physics, and Foreign Language (if you have less than 3 years, or plan to take a language to fulfill some GenEd requirements)), and complete an online “homework” survey, which makes you think about your 1st semester schedule, and assists your Engineering advisor in helping you create your Fall Semester schedule. You list your AP courses, and the scores you have, or estimate that you’ll have, your standardized test scores etc, and a printout is generated listing the courses that those scores get you credit for. Those along with the placement tests help to determine your course schedule. The timetable (listing of course sections offered), by the way, is also online, so the student can also attempt to build his/her own schedule prior to coming down.</p>
<p>This online availability was very reassuring to my son and I. It gave him a good idea of where he stood in Math, Chemistry and Physics, and he was able to build a tentative schedule for this coming Fall. To me, this preparation is critical. It allowed him to focus on many of the “housekeeping” details of transitioning to college life, so that when he does attend his advising session, he’ll have a better idea of what to discuss with his advisor.</p>
<p>Another event that occurs right at the beginning of the year is Quad Day, where all the Student Organizations set up booths in the “Quad” (the heart of the campus <a href=“http://illinois.edu/about/tours/quadCam.html[/url]”>http://illinois.edu/about/tours/quadCam.html</a>), and basically hawk their wares. This event gives the new student a great overview of the many extracurriculars in which he/she can partake.</p>
<p>Aside from those two events, I’m not sure whether Campus Housing has any events that are organized at that level, but I’d bet they do.</p>
<p>Lastly, an interesting Engineering tangent that is offered is the iEFX program, which replaces the traditional Engineering 100 orientation course. See [Why</a> choose iEFX? | Illinois Engineering Freshman Experience](<a href=“http://iefx.engineering.illinois.edu/about-iefx]Why”>Campus Home - CampusGroups) for information about this program. My son decided to take advantage of it.</p>
<p>Hope that helps.</p>