Freshman son rattled about Organic chemistry may give up med school.

It is NOT sad that those who can’t do well with undergrad chemistry lose out to those who do in getting into medical school. Physicians need to understand the science behind disorders and medications to intelligently make decisions as new information/products come out. We should not be relying on slick drug reps touting the latest greatest pill for information, we need to know how things work and that means understanding basic chemistry. In a world where there is a surplus of people who want to become physicians the ones who understand more and handle coursework more easily are the ones who will handle the medical school courses more easily.

Affability counts but I would much rather have a physician who knows his/her stuff. It is a lot easier to showcase “people skills” when one is not crunched for time, btw. The patient may have all the time in the world but the physician needs to keep things moving and get to the next patient. Blame the middleman for reasons people in large practices are required to meet performance standards of seeing x patients per day. I know of physicians let go for that reason, not medical competence. Applying business models by nonphysicians has changed medical practice for the worse.

Wouldn’t good people skills help a physician get the needed information from the patient and get the needed messages to the patient in a time-efficient manner?

OP here!! Thank you for all the advice. I also enjoy hearing personal experiences that help put things in perspective. My son scored a 78 out of 180. The class average was 64 with a low of 38 and a high of 161(that kid is going places whoever he/she is). He actually did a little better than he thought. So his plan is too stick with the class(i.e. Not drop it) and do some soul searching over the summer. Thank you @ucbalumnus(post 21) for explaining the standard Stanford pre-med track. I would rather him not take OC as a freshman but it is what it is.
Funny how many people think I’m pushing him into med school-I actually tried to push him towards Computer Science or Engineering thinking they have more upside than medicine. I will know more when he takes the next exam and keep you updated.

Realize the “doctoring” begins now in the first weeks of first year. And the clinical exams include communications skills. Perfect? No. But the goal is more than just the science savvy. We may sometimes forego people skills for the doc we feel most knows his stuff. But it’s all part of current programs.

Congrats to your son, @NosyCaliparent! Not unusual to have very low test averages in this course. He’s comfortably above the mean!

The nomenclature part of organic chemistry is usually covered in the first week, and is the easiest part of the course by far. As functional groups are studied throughout the year (ex. -OH alcohols, =O aldehydes and ketones, aromatics…), more nomenclature is added. Only knowing how to name the compounds will not give a passing grade. It’s about the reaction mechanisms. My advice for students to succeed in this course (any course but particularly this one) is to not let yourself ever fall behind! Keep up with the material, or it will become next to impossible to catch up on your own.

I get the idea of “communications skills” as a skill. Exactly what other types of “people skills” are we talking about?

Glad to hear that the organic exam went better than expected, actually! I took organic a long time ago, and still recall that on one of the exams, the mean was 23 out of 100 and the mode was 4. I have read that one of the organic profs at MIT used to wear all black (as if in mourning) when returning the first exam.

My advice is that if your son is continuing with subsequent courses in organic chemistry, he should review and rethink heavily over the summer. Coming into an organic chemistry class for the first time, students in principle know 100% of what they need to know, to succeed in the course. If a student scores an 80% overall in the first term (hypothetical case), then going into the second term, the student (hypothetically) actually only knows 80% of the material required to succeed in the second term. If nothing else changes, the student’s expected score in the second term is 64%. In my view, this is why many students’ grades in organic chemistry seem to decline inexplicably from semester to semester, or term to term.

I’d like to return to the topic of “people skills,” with a personal example of how people skills and cognitive skills might play out.

My father lived to be close to 91. In the last three months of his life, he was classified as having dementia, due to his responses to the Standard Dementia Questionnaire (a made-up term, but real questions). I visited my father often during that period, and I would have said that he was cognitively clear.

What his primary care physician seemed to miss was the fact that my father was almost completely deaf, by that point. He had been a B-17 pilot in WW II. On his last mission, his plane was hit by flak, and it developed bad fires in two engines, which maneuvering did not extinguish. He gave the order to his men to bail out, and kept flying the plane so that they could get out. The bomb bay, which would have been the normal exit for several of the men, was in flames. Of the 8 men with him, 7 got out of the plane successfully before it exploded, and they parachuted to the ground. Of those seven, 6 lived into old age; but one died that day, evading capture. My father survived because the plane blew up twice. The first time, he lost consciousness briefly and then came to, pressed against the windshield, with the plane spinning nose down. The second time the plane blew up (there were two 500 gallon fuel tanks, both a little more than half full at that point), he found himself in the air, largely uninjured. B-17 pilots wore their parachutes in a backpack at all times while flying (unlike the crew men), so he had it. He parachuted to the ground; he was taken POW, but survived.

However, this event did affect his hearing. It was always somewhat sub-par after that, but worsened as he aged. The hearing loss that not infrequently accompanies extreme age, combined with the earlier hearing damage, took its toll. He became moderately skilled in lip-reading, but did not have any formal training in it. Nor did we think to suggest that he (and we) learn ASL.

So, if one asked my father, “Who is the President?” or “Who is the resident?” he probably could not tell the difference. Some conversational interactions he could guess, relying on a word or two that he picked up and some general context (if there was nothing that came out of left-field).

A week before he died, I was able to communicate with my father successfully by Morse code, which he had learned in pilot training and had not forgotten. (I googled Morse code on my cell phone.) So I am reasonably sure that he did not have dementia, in the common understanding of the term.

So, long story, what is the point? I would not expect any physician to learn my dad’s personal history far enough to know about the WW II experience. Someone who had good people skills could probably have recognized the extreme hearing problem, given enough time. But managed patient care apparently did not allow for the time. Or a person with good people skills might have listened to the nurses and nurses’ aides, one of whom might have recognized the problem. Someone might have entered it in his medical records earlier, but apparently no one did. The family’s input about the hearing problem did not seem to be considered.

For accuracy, I’d take the physician with good cognitive skills, who might think beyond the surface appearances of things, and identify the actual problem.

Not sure if this is the case for the OP, but I’ve seen the following scenario play out many many times. In the beginning of the semester, students will ask about grading, and the professor makes it clear that he will not curve. In the professor’s mind, this means that he will assign grades based on how he thinks students have mastered the material, but this could mean that a 55% is a B, for example. In the students’ minds, this means grading is done on a strict 10 point scale, so a 55% is going to be an F, no matter what. The midterm comes, and the average is a 50%. Students are freaking out because they think they will get an F in the course and the professor gets annoyed because he thinks students are just grade-grubbing. Some people will drop the course thinking that they are failing, while others hope that they will just make it up in the final. The final goes similarly, but in the end the professor decides that a 55% will be an A, and those that didn’t drop the course are generally happy with their grade. I have no idea why this keeps happening, but it’s a huge cause of unnecessary stress.

Excellent discussion here! I was glad to see the advice from compmom who said it’s not necessary to do premed, and that it’s important to remember to keep it enjoyable. And there is also another comment from someone who mentions it’s not necessary to take organic chem as a freshman. I think that’s your answer, right there. Let him be free of this struggle now and come back to it later when he has a few more years of experience knocking down tough courses.

[quote=Nasa2014]

Why was he taking organic chemistry as a freshman? Just because he got a 5 on the AP exam doesn’t mean he will automatically pass organic freely. Organic chemistry is usually a sophomore class after the student takes general chemistry 1 and 2 during freshman year.

He probably came in with AP Chemistry (with a score of 5) or Dual Enrollment Chemistry 1 & 2 with Labs), which allows him to bypass Chem. 1 (and possibly, Chem. 2).

Just a FYI: A lot of the international students with GCE A Levels, enter US Universities having completed Organic Chemistry, Physics, Calculus I-II, etc. by age 18. In their country of origin, they enter medical school straight out of high school. So, a large number of these international students are repeating Organic Chemistry when they enrolled at US Universities.

Being above average at Stanford is probably nothing to worry about, if the grades are “curved” to the typical Stanford grade distribution (mean 3.57, median 3.67 according to https://thelittledataset.com/2015/07/31/eduanalytics-101-an-investigation-into-the-stanford-education-space-using-edusalsa-data/ ). An A- or higher grade is not going to do serious damage to his medical school prospects.

It probably happens because students tend to think “high school grading scale” (90% = A, 80% = B, 70% = C, or something similar) when they hear “no grading curve”, even if the actual announced grading scale is something else. Often, the students were A (or at least B) students in high school used to getting 90+% correct all or most of the time, so getting 50% correct is a shock, even if it corresponds to an A grade.

On the other hand, if the instructor says “no grading curve” but does not specify the thresholds for each grade (like this syllabus here does: http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs61a/sp16/articles/about.html#tests-and-grading ), that can cause students to think “high school grading scale” since they usually have no other point of reference for grading without a grading curve.

@WriterBossBoston wrote:
Excellent discussion here! I was glad to see the advice from compmom who said it’s not necessary to do premed, and that it’s important to remember to keep it enjoyable. And there is also another comment from someone who mentions it’s not necessary to take organic chem as a freshman. I think that’s your answer, right there. Let him be free of this struggle now and come back to it later when he has a few more years of experience knocking down tough courses.

If you are interested in medical school you can major in anything you want, but there are “pre-med” courses (biology and chemistry, mostly) that are required to be taken before you apply to med school. In reality, anyone who is admitted to med school has earned a minor in chemistry, whether or not they declare a chemistry minor.

Orgo sucks. It’s just a VERY different skill. For a few people it clicks. For most, it’s a brutal battle to assimilate it. Big thing to remember with Orgo…if at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. It requires patience. It teaches good lessons about failing that these kids have never been exposed to in the past. And yes…doctors DO need to understand what frustration and failure are like…because in spite of their best efforts some of their patients will die. Coming to grips with that… is a reality that super-students are rarely in touch with. it’s a good lesson.

How much will you actually USE orgo and orgo 2 in practice? Not a hell of a lot. But it’s still an important class. Both for the fundamental knowledge base, and for the experience of slaying it.

A bad first run at Orgo is not a world ending circumstance. it’s the wake up call that “this crap just got real…academic rigor is going to be serious from here on out”. It’s a chance to evaluate whether you’re really up for the brain twisting stress and challenge. Some people won’t like this…and won’t want to be doctors anymore. Some, in spite of their poor performance in orgo will still want to be doctors as much as ever. Those people will try again, and again…until they get it right. And they will be fine.

(That said…there should be success in other difficult areas…Genetics, Biochem, Cell and Molecular Bio…if TOO MANY of these are sinking you…there might be an unpleasant reality to be faced. But no single class when everything else is going well…should be a decided defeat)

That depends on the definition of “minor”. If using for reference a school where a “minor” requires significant upper level course work in the subject, then the pre-med course work (which is mainly lower level course work) does not automatically mean a minor in chemistry (or biology).
http://chemistry.berkeley.edu/ugrad/degrees/chem/minor
https://web.stanford.edu/dept/registrar/bulletin0910/5745.htm

My observations of students suggest that there is appreciable intellectual maturation that goes on between the first and second years of college, and noticeable maturation after that.

I would not recommend to any student to take organic chemistry in the freshman year, even if the student has AP credit for general chemistry–if there is any way to avoid it. Some universities, mine included, offer an honors version of general chemistry (quite different from the regular version for chemistry majors) for students with AP chemistry. Then they can take organic chemistry in the sophomore year.

A few students I know have successfully taken organic chemistry as freshmen. But they are pretty rare. Perhaps Stanford and the University of Michigan think that all of their students are “rare.” But perhaps this is not so. :slight_smile:

Berkeley and Notre Dame also have chemistry sequences for biology majors and pre-meds that start organic chemistry in the second semester (assuming no advanced placement from AP credit). In the Berkeley case, the chemistry sequence for biology majors and pre-meds is a less difficult one than the one for chemistry and chemical engineering majors, which starts organic chemistry in the third semester (and does not allow advanced placement from AP credit).

Thanks to all for suggesting OC as a second language. He picked it up and labeled it a lifesaver. Next exam is in two weeks.

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Those things are not mutually exclusive. It’s possible for med schools to find students who possess both good people skills and who are capable of brilliant thought processes and skills.
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Truth!