Orgo at many schools is usually designed to be a weeder class. It won’t get easier. If med school isn’t for him, that’s okay. You also don’t need to be pre-med to get into med school FWIW.
Physician who graduated from Med school 20 plus years ago chiming in here. I took Organic Chemistry as a Sophomore and I loved the class. (I struggled in General Chemistry as a Freshman BTW) I knew Orgo was going to be a “weeder” class (all the pre-meds knew it), so I was “dialed in” from the start, determined to do well. For me it was more of a “problem solving” class, where often you needed to figure out the reactions you needed to use to get from compound A to compound B. I honestly have no practical use for this information in my current medical practice…however I will always have fond memories of making it through that crucible.
This thread has been very interesting for me, especially the discussion about whether OC relies more on memorization or problem-solving. My high school senior is currently taking OC at a local college, and it kicked her butt first quarter; she barely scraped a C. She’s figured out that her problem is the memorization – she’d previously relied mostly on problem-solving and didn’t realize that this class would require a different approach. She changed her study techniques and barely earned a B second quarter. She is working really, really, really hard to get a solid B third quarter. OC has been a fabulous wake-up call for her.
I am new to this thread, and admittedly have not read all of it. But in response to the OP I just wanted to share a recent story with you. My niece has had a many years long dream to be a doctor. She received a C in organic chemistry. She ended up graduating with a very average gpa, and her MCAT scores were good but not stellar (her words, not mine). She never gave up hope because this was HER dream and life plan.
She applied to med school a year after college and after shadowing doctors. She was denied from all, despite getting to interviews at many. One school wrote her a letter that told her what she could do to increase her chances for her second attempt. She did everything they said, including getting a Masters in Public Health and spending time volunteering (in Africa). She applied again after this (round 2) , and was denied from all schools.
Disheartened and now out of undergraduate for five years, she went back to community college and retook many undergrad science courses. She got top scores. She retook the MCAT and got a job in public health. She volunteered in her free time and continued to pursue her dream, though her family worried that she needed to move forward. Two days ago in round 3 of applying to med school, at age 30 and after MANY rejections, she was accepted. If this is your son’s dream, if this is what he wants…one class should not deter him. Perhaps this is why O chem divides those who really want it from those who don’t. If one gives up so quickly, they may not have what it takes to make it through.
Re #143
How did she manage all of that financially? Cannot imagine an MPH and a year of unpaid volunteer work being cheap, especially if one has student loans from undergraduate.
@2mrmagoo congratulations to your amazing niece.
ucbalumnus, sadly with huge debt. She did work as a waitress and live at home when shadowing. Her parents helped with undergrad and she had a scholarship but that’s it. She has lived very frugally and will be paying off debt for years. These are her decisions, however. I’m proud of her. I was one of those who bailed out after freshman year science courses so I see what she’s done as a triumph of will. She will manage her debt as she has managed her path so far, with determination and tenacity. Thanks Jugulator20!
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“Anyone want to bet that those with averages in the 64-78 range would likely be A/B students at a good but not tippy-top school”
@mom2collegekids I agree with you that they are weeding out.
So with the other question are you saying that an average Stanford student would be A/B at State U?? Would not
OC be the same or similar in both places? So I would suspect he would get roughly the same grade regardless of the school due to the subject matter. OC is hard no matter where you take it right?
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OC will be the same or similar…perhaps even using the same textbooks. The difference would be something like…running in a race with Olympic stars vs running in a race with college stars. In which race do you think you’re more likely going to be one of the best?
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preppedparent wrote:
No, med schools don’t know what suimmer courses you take unless you report them.
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WHY would you think that???
Schools use a clearinghouse service that tells them every school a student attended.
Perhaps, AMCAS doesn’t use the service, but very likely the med schools do because their universities do.
@CaliCash <<< You also don’t need to be pre-med to get into med school FWIW.>>>
I think the parent is using the term “premed” to indicate that her child is following the premed track. I doubt that Stanford has a premed major, since only a couple of schools in the nation have a premed major.
Since universities use the clearinghouse service to discover if a student has taken classes elsewhere, it’s possible that this isn’t just done at the time of matriculation. If an undergrad annually uses this service, then it will uncover the class and likely demand a transcript.
And if the above doesn’t happen periodically during undergrad and not only at matriculation, then most certainly the med schools use the service.
“Schools use a clearinghouse service that tells them every school a student attended.”
Does this cover only universities (and colleges and community colleges) in the US, or does it cover Canada and/or other countries?
I don’t know about Canadian schools, but I don’t think they cover other int’l schools.
The issue here was the suggestion that a domestic student take a summer Ochem class and then not tell the med schools the student applies to.
Not every college is into using “clearing houses” to spy on students. Many students take organic chemistry in the summer for a grade or to get some experience before taking it at their college. Its so routinely done, no one is looking to catch a student trying to game the system.
You are suggesting something that is incredibly risky because you and the innocent student does not know if his school or future med schools he applies to uses National Student Clearinghouse. But the truth is, an overwhelming number do use it. For one thing, it’s used for FA purposes as well, not just “spying” as you put it.
Since it is also used for FA purposes, it’s possible that all schools using FAFSA are now either using it by choice or req’t.
And it’s not “clearing houses”…It is the National Student Clearinghouse. It’s one agency that nearly every college and university uses. It is one entity
"More than 3,600 colleges and universities participate in the Clearinghouse, reporting enrollment and degree information to us regularly throughout the year
Participants enroll 98% of all students in public and private U.S. institutions
Do you see that? 98% of students in the US are enrolled in schools that use NSC.
For you to act like this is a risk worth taking is highly irresponsible.
Ack! <>>
*do not know…
Prepped, my company (and many other big companies) also subscribe to the clearinghouse-- we use it to verify that someone has indeed graduated from the institution they claim on their resume with the degree they cite. You would be surprised by how many mid-level professionals have erroneous information on their resume- a four day seminar at Wharton on Negotiating Skills morphs into an MBA. Harvard’s extension school becomes Harvard College. Southern Connecticut State becomes U Conn. And a degree in construction management becomes a BS in Civil Engineering.
If you think you can outsmart the Clearinghouse you can’t-- we dismissed a Senior Vice President many years ago for claiming a PhD which he did not earn. And the job didn’t require a PhD- that’s the sad part. But lying on your resume isn’t a good practice in a business which requires a high degree of integrity (he got caught before he testified in front of a Senate committee and a reporter raised a question about his official bio). That company did not use the Clearinghouse- but you better believe they do now.
Encouraging your kid to omit information on an application- whether to med school, the armed services, or a job, is a dangerous way to launch a career IMHO.
@blossom That’s a very helpful post, thank you.
An issue related to the level of memorization required in organic chemistry: A child’s friend who graduated from Boston University was in the same med-school class with an MIT grad who was struggling. She was asked to tutor him. After talking with him for a while, she identified his “problem”: He was trying to understand the material. There wasn’t time for that. He needed to just memorize things.
I suspect that some of the issue with memorization in organic chemistry has to do with how much time is available to devote to the course. The more time one has to spend on it, the less actual memorization is required.
Organic chemistry is very different from general chemistry, physics, and early college math courses, though. In those courses, once a student understands something, the student is prepared to solve problems based on it. There is something about organic chemistry that once a student understands the course topics, he/she is only about 1/3 of the way done studying it. The student really needs to internalize the ideas, to have them ready to employ. Also, to give a concrete example, there are fine differences in the actions of different reducing agents. The student’s internal conceptual map needs to include the differences.
There have been some studies of the eye movements of introductory organic students when looking at a drawing of a molecule and the eye movements of organic chemists looking at the same molecule. The organic chemists hone right in on the functional groups. I think there are other aspects of the molecular structure to which they are particularly attentive, while the students tend to look at all parts of the molecule about equally. This might be helpful to know.
An interesting web item which appears to be a newsletter for Stanford pre-med students:
http://www.questscholars.org/oldstuff/activities/professional/pre-med_letter/premed-letter-2001-2-pdf.pdf
@QuantMech This is my favorite- So wistful for the days of 135K undergraduate degrees:
“You ought to know more about the medical profession before you devote your once in-a-life-time $135,000 Stanford education to it.”