Fretting over decision

Parents Forum
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<p>My D is still choosing between Berkeley and Princeton. So far, she visited the Cal Day and Princeton Preview. This weekend she will visit Cal's OHP - and then will have just 3 days to finally decide.</p>

<p>So far, she feels that both options have their own advantages and flaws.</p>

<p>Berkeley:</p>

<p>pros:
resident tuition (which might increase, but won't depend on the size of our income, since for UCs, we have negative financial need ;));</p>

<p>Regents Scholarship (which is not much money or privileges in Cal, but still ... something?);</p>

<p>home proximity (she can come home whichever weekend she likes to and take (or bring back) whatever stuff she wants, no need to pack and move EVERYTHING in one flight, no hassle of flying, no time zone changes);</p>

<p>healthier climate;</p>

<p>the great linguistics program which she is currently interested in.</p>

<p>cons:</p>

<p>the "impacted majors" - even though she is unlikely to switch to engineering or economics or business majors (but who knows ...), she might want (and strongly urged by me ;)) to explore those fields by taking classes which might supplement her studies of interest: if linguistics - then, probably, she could use some computer programming studies; if international relations - then some economics background might help. But all those "useful" classes in Berkeley are known to have long waiting lists, hundreds of classmates packed in auditorium, professors' unavailability, etc;</p>

<p>general lesser availability of desired classes and resourses (our knowledge of that is vague, but that what Berkeley's common reputation is);</p>

<p>demographics: gender-wise (unfavorable for girls ;)), ethnic-wise (unfavorable for white girls ;)), geography-wise (the vast majority is from California - not a problem for me, but "very boring" for her);</p>

<p>also, Berkeley is generally known as a stressful and competitive environment, but we are not sure how does it apply to humanities students.</p>

<p>Princeton ... it's just Princeton. ;) It, among other great schools, gave us the best finaid, but it still will cost us 7-10K more than Cal each year. And if we try to earn some more (which won't be MUCH more - I am only capable of finding some low-paying job ;)), then the aid will probably be cut (we have no idea how much). It doesn't have major in linguistics - only a certificate program (and right now DD feels such a strong interest in it, that she considers creating "independent major"); but with its great academics and, probably, more accessible classes in ANY field she is more likely, than in Cal, to find some new interests and maybe switch to more "practical"/"employable" field.;) And, of course, its gorgeous campus, extremely bright students, proximity to NYC and just glory of the name ;) all make it really, really tempting.</p>

<p>So far, DD is greatly tempted by Princeton (she came back from Preview absolutely eiphoric), but can't find the sound enough "practical" reason to choose it over Cal. In order to fight a temptation, she even removed all the orange stuff (including her beloved stuffed tiger ;)) from her room. :) She feels that most probably she will be fine wherever she goes to, but might regret later about choosing "practical" opportunity over unique and amazing one. </p>

<p>Thus, I'd like to find some more of "practicalities", which might finally convince us to pay or not to pay those extra 7-10-12K a year (which by no means will be easy for us), handle emotionally, financially and even physically the distance, somewhat risk (god fobid!) her health and safety (air travel, unstable, global-warming-influenced weather (storms, hurricanes), East Coast humidity;)) ...</p>

<p>How much Princeton vs. Berkeley name recognition measures up (I know, both are great, but some people told me, not exactly equal)? How much difference does it make depending on the area (will she be equally employable/gradschool-acceptable in all parts of the country with one's or another's diploma)? Is one's alumni network stronger or more influential than another's? What other advantages (except the unique undergraduate experience, which is kind of given ;)) does Princeton have over Cal?</p>

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<p>Despite New Jersey's reputation (kidding!) it is a perfectly safe and healthy place to live! The weather down in southern Jersey is not anything terrible ... I can see being concerned about majors and such - but storms and hurricanes???? I'd worry more about earthquakes on your coast! Your daughter would not be at Princeton during the most humid months, and honestly, we all survive the humidity.</p>

<p>I'll leave the comments on programs and name recognition to others.</p>

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<p>Last summer there WAS the strom in NYC which would be more expected somewhere in souteastern states. And the tendency doesn't look good. But I am more concerned about flying conditions in winter (I do want to see DD on Thanksgiving and Cristmass/New Year at our family dinner table, not stuck in some airoport with canceled flights ;)).</p>

<p>When the most humidity usually starts and stops?</p>

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<p>I would say that it is humid (on and off) from mid-late June (depending on the year) through the end of August. However, every day is not humid. THe humidity usually comes in waves. Remember, we are talking about New Jersey, not Florida!</p>

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<p>Your daughter has a great choice to make - congratulations! I will leave it to others on the board to address the academic issues. In regards to the "practicalities" you discussed, I don't think climate is a serious one. Unstable global-warming-influenced weather exists everywhere. Princeton is not on the coast or a body of water, and is not likely to suffer great damage in the event of a hurricane. New Jersey humidity can sometimes be rather oppressive in the summer months, but not September - June. Its hard to beat Autumn in Princeton. East coast folks worry about sending their kids west to the land of earthquakes - and I bet you never think about that. Plane travel is a hassle, but the school will likely facilitate the shipment and storage of boxes, which helps a lot. Also, being on another coast, as you mentioned, will expose your daughter to a different "culture" which I feel is very healthy. Only you know if you can swing the extra $$$$.</p>

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<p>I simply cannot fathom there being any contest between Princeton and Berkeley. Humidity is simply not a factor in the decision. Finances might be and your daughter will make that back in her first job. Princeton is the opportunity of a lifetime. Period.</p>

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<p>Ha Ha twinmom, I was too slow in my response! I see we are thinking along the same lines.</p>

<p>myau, we live in NY and my D attended school in St. Louis, a plane ride away, although not as long as the ride from the west coast. In the four years that she went back and forth we never had a weather-related problem at the airport - we were pretty lucky. The problem at Thanksgiving is usually crowds, not weather. You have to book tickets way ahead of time. At least you would only have to worry about the weather on the east coast end! Where in CA do you live? If you are near LA or the Bay area, there are probably lots of flight choices, which helps in the event of cancellations.</p>

<p>BTW our daughter now lives in San Francisco - hasn't been home yet, but will be here for Thanksgiving and Xmas. We will manage!</p>

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<p>Bicoastalmom: My daughter's best friend goes to school in St. Louis. She complains about the humidity there more than on the east coast ... says she hasn't had a good hair day yet!</p>

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<p>My daughter chose between Cal with Regents, Stanford, and Princeton. She is now a junior at Princeton. We also live in California. </p>

<p>She chose as she did because, a) finances were not a big issue b) Stanford felt too much like her high school c) Cal was just too big. She also loved the Princeton admit weekend, liked the Stanford one, and didn't like the Cal one at all. Just too big, and my D is the type who likes to get her arms around an organization and master it. Which, at Princeton, in many ways she has done.</p>

<p>That said, here is my advice. Only you can quantify the relative Princeton benefits in context of your financial situation. I can only tell you the parameters I would try to quantify. First, experiencing the East Coast. It's different:). We sometimes forget what a unique environment we have here in the Bay Area. Second, honestly, Princeton gives students who care and want to take advantage the most astonishing opportunities. The highest endowment per student of all major universities means something. Taking the "extra" stuff would be a joy for your daughter, whether it was Economics, Financial Engineering, Comp Sci, or, let's say, Religion or Medieval History or Music of Africa.</p>

<p>What I wouldn't try to quantify? Prestige. I think Berkeley is just as prestigious. I do. In any way that matters, i.e. career.</p>

<p>What I think is difficult to say in your daughter's case is whether the Cal Linguistics dept would really give her a better education than putting something similar together at Princeton. There is no doubt she could put together independent study. And fly all over the world to do it. The question is, does she think the faculty members in the program, and in the various language and cognitive neuroscience and philosophy depts. etc. would offer her the erudition and sheer content she's looking for.</p>

<p>Cal wins on cost. Princeton on overall undergraduate experience and the chance to see the other side of the country (me I came home to California:)). But the tie-breaker, to me, would be the actual courses your daughter would take. Look at the Undergraduate Announcement, spend time on the course schedule for Fall 2008, look at the professor bios. Have her ask on the Princeton Facebook groups. Let her know that it may not be possible to go to Princeton given the cost, but that you all want to know exactly what you are turning down.</p>

<p>But not prestige. Cal is as good. Some places the Cal name is much better.</p>

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<p>To better or to worse, I wonder ... ;)</p>

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<p>It's not impossible, but rather, borderline between bearable and not. ;) (We'll survive, of course, but her little sister feels already kind of resentful about our perspective changes of lifestyle: most possible financial sacrifices will be made on the things which are easily noticed by kids :(. And I feel some guilt about depriving one child at the expence of another one ... but it works in both ways;)). And if try to help ourselves we might be "punished" for that (the finaid diminished).</p>

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<p>In much of California and in many Asian countries UC Berkeley very highly regarded and is better known than Princeton.</p>

<p>Overall, I agree with Alumother's assessment of the choice.</p>

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<p>I think some software companies in the Bay Area would prefer a Cal graduate in Comp Sci to a Princeton graduate. Of course, Cal does have one of the best Comp Sci program in the world....But there are also people who are sometimes wary of Ivy League undergrads and prefer a new grad hire who they assume will be super smart but maybe more humble. And I say that with a lot of Ivy League background throughout my family. And, as coureur says, in Asia absolutely Cal has more of a name.</p>

<p>Later in life I have found my Princeton degree to be valuable over and over. Helped me get a full time job at the age of 40, after 10 years of being a stay at home mom and then a part time consultant. I'm just trying to be balanced in my recommendations to you.</p>

<p>BTW, a certificate program at Princeton is still a big deal. My D is a Psych major but her certificate is in Neuroscience and she is doing research with a Neuroscience professor whose lab in Computational Memory is just amazing. Now that I think about it, it might be right up your D's alley if she also has interest in programming at all. My D does the behavioural stuff. </p>

<p>Princeton</a> Computational Memory Lab</p>

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<p>princeton is worth an extra 30-40k. you all did the hardest part already as in "the hardest part of going to <harvard prestigious="" ivy=""> is getting in.". You can always make up the 30 k delivering pizzas, greeting walmart customers etc.</harvard></p>

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<p>As previous posters have mentioned, Berkeley is as prestigious as Princeton and perhaps more prestigious in the Western US and in Asia. Cost is also a plus for Berkeley. If your D is even a little assertive she will get the classes she wants. And just knowing you CAN go home is usually sufficient to stave off any homesickness.</p>

<p>As far as employability, there are many places where graduates of the state flagship university are preferentially hired because there are so many of them compared to private school graduates, and they are a known quantity to employers, many of whom also graduated from a public university. Berkeley will have a larger alum network and the person doing the hiring is statistically more likely to have graduated from a public university.</p>

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<p>As others have said, an opportunity of a lifetime. It is also a chance for her to experience the other side of the country and stretch herself.
And besides,
OMG, for pete's sake....it's PRINCETON. Totally worth the extra $.</p>

<p>Congratulations to your D on all her success. You must be so proud.</p>

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<p>I'm not too worried about the prestige at Berkeley, but I was concerned about the undergrad experience. Not just the classroom experience, but living on campus and really being a part of campus life. As an Eastcoaster who spent three extremely enjoyable years in Pasadena while husband to be was in grad school, I think there's a lot to be said for getting to know another part of the country well. So I lean towards Princeton.</p>

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<p>myau, my kid is also deciding between a West coast and an East coast LAC. For us, costs are roughly the same. Both schools are a non-stop flight away, 3 or 4.5 hr (safer than a 4-hr car trip), both have great academics. D thinks that she needs to get out of the West coast "bubble" and "explore the world" like her ancestors did, and my H is very supportive of her ideas (I'm not so sure I'd like her to go so far away). Your D's choices are wonderful, a degree from either will serve her well. If money is not a huge issue, let your D make her own decision. If things go sour (doubtful :)), she will not come back screaming at you "You made me go there!" I sense she wants to head East... As far as majoring in linguistics, kids often change their mind. D's friend at a LAC thought about majoring in bio, but fell in love with another subject after taking an intro class.</p>

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<p>Princeton without a doubt, especially as we are talking undergraduate vrs graduate education[ Cal has a superb reputation in the world in great part to it's graduate programs, not due to the qualitry of the undergraduate programs.The CS / EE and Haas schools are the exception.]
she will have smaller class sizes, more interaction with profs, the largest per student endowment of any college , and the opportunities that are possible because of all the $$$. There is an article in the Sun NY times about Princeton- just made my mouth water to read of all the opportunities students have there!! If in her heart and gut your D wants to go to Princeton, then that should be the answer.</p>

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<p>Have you tried asking Princeton if they can see their way clear to meeting you halfway on the FA?</p>

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<p>Yea, DD wrote them a "self-pity" ;) letter about "special circumstances" (immigrant experience of starting from zero wealth, elderly relatives overseas, the crazy cost of Bay Area life etc ... even mentioned her Regents to all UCs ;)). They added 2K more to the FA. But still ... BTW, are they known to cut FA in consequent years? I've heard, private institutions often do that ...</p>