Fretting over decision

Parent Cafe
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<p>Here's a consideration that hasn't been mentioned:</p>

<p>If your daughter decides to go to grad school (not exactly uncommon in linguistics), I've heard a slew of complaints from Berkeley undergrads regarding letters of recommendation. The frosh/soph classes are often taught by TAs, giving a student only a couple years to get to know a professor well enough to write a really good letter of rec. She'll need three letters to apply to grad school. Also, Berkeley professors are known for being a bit more invested in their grad students, making getting to know them as an undergrad even more difficult. It isn't impossible by any means, but it does mean that she will have to work a lot harder (not just in class, but networking with professors outside of class) to impress enough details and earn a glowing letter of rec. Berkeley profs are also less likely to hook undergrads up with experiences such as conferences, internships, etc. - undergrads generally need to seek this stuff out on their own.</p>

<p>Of course, there are exceptions, and some of the professors are very invested in the undergrads. But I've been hearing, time and time again, over the course of several years, that is the exception rather than the rule.</p>

<p>She could always, if she thinks she will be interested in grad school, go to Princeton for undergrad and Berkeley for grad. UCB is a terrific, top-notch grad school. However, most grad schools tend not to accept their undergrads into their grad program, because they want them to branch out.</p>

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/other-college-majors/440851-best-linguistics-schools.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/other-college-majors/440851-best-linguistics-schools.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

103

<p>I imagine Myau's D has decided by now -- and whatever she decided, I hope she will be happy and successful. But just to address the comment about getting recommendations at Cal -- I've known students with the same problem at Harvard. In both cases, it is self-inflicted. In smaller departments, and even in larger ones at the point that the student is taking upper division courses (and it is from the professors in those courses that the student will need to get those recommendations), it is not difficult to meet professors: just talk in class and go to their office hours. They are sitting there waiting for students to come by, and at Cal, as at Harvard, the top professors are glad to help (because it makes Cal look good, if for no more altruistic reason). Cal, like Harvard and Princeton, WANTS its students to succeed, to win Rhodes Scholarships and Marshall Scholarships, to get into top graduate schools. The confidence and skill that would lead a student to take the step of going to office hours and meeting their professors is the same kind of confidence and skill that would be essential to getting into graduate school in the first place.</p>

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<p>"The frosh/soph classes are often taught by TAs"</p>

<p>i don't know exactly where this stems from. What exactly are "frosh/soph" courses? do you mean lower division level classes? introductory classes? the only courses that i've seen that are specifically designed for freshmen and/or sophmore are the seminars, which are actually led by professors hand-picked for their excelence in teaching (without exception, these are generally the best professors in each department, enrollment is usually limited to 20 students, NO discussion/section so NO graduate student intermediary). </p>

<p>the only classes that are taught by graduate students are (1) discussions/section (lectures given by professors); (2) language classes (do you really need a full-time professor to teach you elementary german?), and (3) reading/writing courses (i'm not even sure this is a case, as mine was taught by a visiting instructor).</p>

<p>again, mamenyu raises some very good points.</p>

<p>the earlier you decide your major and declare, the better. you are then put on the department listserv, so you get all departmental announcements, including job, internship opportunities and invitations to conferences of interest. your name will appear in the database so, at the very least, your department chair will know you. my department holds a weekly colloquium (sometimes several talks) followed by an informal reception (yes, alchohol's served!). every week when i sit in, i'm amazed that i get to sit in a room of 60 or so people, and about half the people there are ALL the professors in my department, including departmental staff. to be honest, i've only gone to office hours one or two times in my entire time at Cal, but professors recognize me, and some have specifically emailed me to offer to write recommendations. for the OP's D, it is very common for the regent's association to hold dinner talks with various distinguished professors, deans, or chancellors, so the threshold for meeting important people is much, much lower than for the rest of the student population</p>

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<p>GSI's at Cal, formerly known as TA's, are graduate students who in the language departments teach lower-division courses in the languages (often they are native speakers) and in English, Comp. Lit., Rhetoric, Art History, and a variety of other subjects, teach introductory writing courses ("freshman English"). Other than that, they teach small sections that meet once or twice weekly, in conjunction with large lecture courses. They also grade the papers. In some courses without GSI's, there are "readers," also graduate students, who grade the papers. In small classes, the professors do the grading.<br>
This is the case in all the top universities with graduate programs, with the exception of U of Chicago in some fields, that I am aware of. Indeed, at Columbia and Stanford, the "core" is taught by graduate students as well as professors -- some are great, some are not; some are engaged, some are distracted. Some will go on to be professors at top schools; some will not get jobs and change careers. But it is a part of the training that graduate students will need if they are to be hired after they complete their PhD's. It is also the case at Princeton, where they are called "preceptors." In fact, in some of the more popular majors at Princeton it can happen that your advisor for the senior thesis is a graduate student -- I know of some History majors for whom that was the case.<br>
If you want to have your freshmen English and language courses taught by professors, your best bet is a liberal arts college with no graduate students, though even there, sometimes they hire adjunct professors or post-doctoral students to teach such courses.
Cal, like many top schools, offers a range of freshmen seminars, with top professors. That is a wonderful opportunity to get to know a faculty member right off the bat.</p>

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<p>I don't know what mamenyu's qualification for the University of Chicago means. I don't think graduate students teach any lecture-type courses there, but many sections of the Core humanities and social sciences classes are taught by grad students (and some by recent PhDs who are hired ONLY to teach core classes), and all of the writing instructors are grad students. Grad students teach low-level math and language classes, too. There are also higher-level seminars taught by grad students -- usually something related to their theses -- but students have a real choice to sign up for those or not, they are not ever requirements.</p>

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<p>That's what I told her, too ... but, you won't believe it, she has some childish concerns about not being able (as a graduate student) to be as involved in the awesome Cal's cultural life ... like "grad students don't sing in a capella groups" (do they? I have no idea ;)). </p>

<p>BTW, will the grad student who comes to Cal after Princeton back to her home state be considered as "resident"?</p>

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<p>JHS -- I was thinking specifically of the music department; I don't think the graduate students do any real teaching in that department. By contrast, at Columbia, they teach Music Hum. That is great for the graduate students.
Myau: I think that the child of California residents is a California resident for UC purposes. There is probably some sort of age cutoff -- but I doubt if it is 21 or 22. You should check the website.
Graduate students can certainly participate in music activities at Cal. Most of the participants are undergraduates, though. And the music department, which is an academic department, does not particularly encourage its graduate students to perform.
It is so competitive getting into graduate schools that comments like: you can always go to Cal or Harvard or Princeton for graduate school are a little bit of wishful thinking. Even the very top students may not end up where they would like to be.</p>

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<p>Myau,</p>

<p>It sounds to me like your daughter's heart and mind is telling her to go with Cal, but she is being distracted/enticed by the prestige factor of Princeton. I am saying this because most of the strong positives you are posting seem to lean toward Cal. I went back to your first post and saw that you wrote, of Princeton, It doesn't have major in linguistics - only a certificate program (and right now DD feels such a strong interest in it, that she considers creating "independent major") </p>

<p>I cannot imagine why any student choosing between 2 colleges would opt for the one that does not offer her intended or most likely major. Berkeley is wonderful for linguistics -- it also has some very well known and respected profs on its faculty. In fact, when my d. took introductory linguistics at Columbia, it was from a prof essentially imported from Berkeley. </p>

<p>If your d. feels that she will be more comfortable socially at Cal and that is the college which offers her major, that is where she should go. She will not get the sort of advice and mentorship with an individually designed major that would be comparable to studying at a university with a strong department. All you have to do is look at the course catalog for linguistics course offerings to see that there is a huge difference in what will be available to her. </p>

<p>The only reservation I would have is that the study of linguistics may not be what you think it is. My d. also thought she had a strong interest in linguistics, until she took that class with that Berkeley prof -- she liked the prof, but struggled with the course and was dismayed at how much the study of linguistics resembles math... which is not her thing. So basically it took only one course to convince her that she didn't want to major in linguistics after all. So it might be worthwhile for your d. to explore how the 2 schools compare on her likely 2nd or 3rd choice majors. </p>

<p>Also, as the parent of 2 California-raised kids who went east for college, socially it was rough going. There is west coast/east coast culture clash, along with a poor kid/rich kid thing that neither could overcome. (We definitely are not "poor"... it just started to seem that way at college). My son came back but could not get into the UC system as a transfer, and will graduate this year from a CSU. My d. is thriving academically and will stay where she is...but just has never found the social fit and strong friendships she had in high school. </p>

<p>I don't think your d. would be undecided at this point if she was meant to go to Princeton. I think she is struggling because internally she is feeling that she "should" want to go the prestigious Ivy League college that has accepted her -- but when it comes down to it, if it weren't for the Ivy prestige... would Princeton even be in the running at this point? Everything else you have posted seems to point very strongly toward Cal.</p>

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<p>One more note -- I see in your most recent post you wrote, you won't believe it, she has **some childish concerns* about not being able (as a graduate student) to be as involved in the awesome Cal's cultural life* </p>

<p>Why are you characterizing your daughter's valid concerns as "childish"? It is not "childish" to want to be involved in the cultural life she sees as "awesome" -- she may not be phrasing things in a sophisticated manner, but if that is important to her then it should be part of the decision process. </p>

<p>Are you hoping that she will opt for Princeton? If so, is your own ego involved? I'm not trying to put you down in any way - around here a "Princeton" bumper sticker probably carries a lot more bragging rights than the far more common "Cal" stickers. But this is one time when we parents really have to let go of our own "dream" in favor of letting our kids make the right decision for themselves. </p>

<p>So if you find yourself trying to dissuade your daughter from considering various factors you consider childish or unimportant.... back off. I'd say that either way you will help your daughter by listening to her concerns and trying to draw them out, rather than trying to in any way to minimize or counter them. You never know... maybe once she can vent and get some worries off her chest, those won't seem so important to her any more and the process will take her in an unexpected direction.</p>

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<p>Honestly, I, probably the board's single biggest proponent and parent and alumna of Princeton, I think calmom has it right.</p>

<p>With one caveat. The social thing is individual. My daughter has more friends and more niches than she had in high school. On the other hand, her high school was full of rich kids so the rich kids at Princeton have not been unusual to her. Nor, however, have they been her only friends by any means.</p>

<p>But when my daughter visited Princeton, that is what she wanted. She knew. She wanted to go East. She wanted to be different. She didn't want more of the same, comfort, etc. She wanted different.</p>

<p>If your daugher loves Cal and really knows she wants linguistics, don't second guess her instincts.</p>

<p>The only thing I wonder is, you said she came back "euphoric" from Princeton. However, if she was even happier at Cal, support her in that feeling.</p>

<p>Prestige is not worth four years of feeling out of place AND lacking the major you want. If she is sure about her major I say you are done:).</p>

<p>Now if she feels about her major the way she feels about making this decision--------->time to draw straws.</p>

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<p>calmom,</p>

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<p>It's a tough question. ;) My ego struggles between the desire tp give our D every possible opportunities to reach up ... anywhere she wants to and beyond - and I have some gut feeling that Princeton might be better for that purpose; but the more practical part of my ego tells me that we'll miss her terribly, worry about her constantly and slightly more struggle financially if she goes there. Those worries, woes and struggles would worth it if she ends up enjoying being there and using as much of unique opportunities there as possible ... and very pitiful if she doesn't. If not hearing constantly about those commonly known shortfalls of Cal (and "out-of-limitness" of Stanford for local kids:() from the time DD was in elementary school, I would never consider her going to any far-away, howerever prestigious college in the first place ... I am not a big fan of this American custom, its too foreign ;) and stressful :( for me. </p>

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<p>Wow. :( Is the difference THAT bad? :( What's that difference about, anyway - money, clothes, ways of talking/walking/living? Some social inequalities, snobbery?</p>

<p>Alumother,</p>

<p>the thing is, she is NOT sure about major. She feels that her other interest - music - would be better pursued at Princeton (but she never searched it seriously in Cal - just relied on some friends' and teachers' hearsay) as well as her chances to explore (and like!) any other, less explored fields are better at Princeton, too.</p>

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<p>That's what my D was SAYING to me for the last few months. ;) In reality, when she tried "the taste" of both environments, it came out, that "comfortable" is more tempting than she thought.</p>

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<p>There is nothing wrong with comfortable.</p>

<p>My sister, brother and I were talking over the weekend. My brother and sister both went to Harvard. Can't get better than that, right? But as we talked, my sister was wishing she had gone to Yale, which is just a little less tough in the culture, a little more nurturing. She wondered out loud, just why all of us kids felt we had to go back East for college. Thirty years later, we look back. For me, Princeton was the great intellectual experience in my life. The different part was worth it. For my daughter, a hardier soul than I, the difference is what she wanted. But for my sister, like me prone to anxiety and not innately suited to competition, going away probably wasn't necessary. She still feels a little bruised from her time at Harvard.</p>

<p>Now, please, quickly I have to say this isn't about Harvard per se. Our parents announced their divorce two weeks before her freshman year, my senior year, in college. There were lots of circumstances.</p>

<p>All I am saying is that prestige is silly later in life, and memories of happiness never lose their value.</p>

<p>Let your daughter decide. Let her know, most of all, that you support her decision. She would find her niche at Princeton. She will have a good education at Cal. There is a low probability of misery.</p>

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<p>Update:)???</p>

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<p>I will give my 2 cents on this. DH did his post-doc at Berkeley and we have many friends who attended Berkeley undergrad and grad. Of course this was 20 years ago, but I can honestly say that our impression was that it was okay if you were enormously certain of your direction and assertive - otherwise it is a good place to get lost. </p>

<p>I'm sorry to offend the Cal boosters on this thread. I respect Cal. I love Cal.</p>

<p>Princeton would be the far better undergrad education. JMHO</p>

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<p>It's a little late for this, but I didn't want to let the last remark go for those who might find this thread next year.<br>
There is no doubt that Princeton is a great school. One of the very best. But whether it is the better place for a particular 18 year old is a different matter -- there are just too many factors. Those factors include whether you are from California and want to be near to family. My older kid told his Harvard interviewer that he wanted to go to Cal because he wanted to be near his younger brother and not miss him growing up. He went to Cal, loved it, and then went on to graduate school at an Ivy. So I've seen it work out well, for the kid and the family as a whole. The kind of student who gets into Princeton or Cal these days, as opposed to 20 years ago, is not very likely to "get lost" just about anywhere, and certainly not a student who earns a Regent's Scholarship. I have known way too many successful and happy Cal students to buy into this stereotype.</p>

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<p>Myau, every kid is different so issues of west coast/east coast fit or adjustment really can't be projected from one kid to another. So even though I raised that, I think my main point is that you shouldn't discount your child's own feeling of comfort level. The specifics that she cites, like an a capella group, might seem trivial, but there are probably are deeper concerns. </p>

<p>My d. is very goal oriented so I think she can subsume her disappointment in the social aspects of her college life by focusing on her academic goals. Maybe part of her problem is that she is surrounded by others who are doing the same -- I am astounded at the number of students I met this past week at her school who are double or triple majors and already have accomplished so much -- these kids just don't have time to take it easy and socialize. </p>

<p>But your d. needs to listen to her heart, wherever it takes her -- and she shouldn't trivialize or ignore those gut feelings. </p>

<p>I guess she will make a decision tonight? I am sure she will do well wherever she chooses. One thing I try to do with a hard decision is imagine how I will feel if things don't work out: will I regret having made the choice? In other words... if she is unhappy at Cal will she feel that she messed up by letting the Princeton opportunity go? or if she is unhappy at Princeton, will she be kicking herself for not having listened to her gut and gone with Cal? </p>

<p>I know that is a kind of negative way to look at things, but sometimes it helps me to put things in perspective -- if I can't figure out which option I like the best, I can at least figure out which I am less likely to regret down the line.</p>

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<p>Princeton. :)</p>

<p>She consciously made a decision NOT to have it easy way. </p>

<p>Now, I'd like somebody to enlighten me about those famous (or infamous? ;)) differences between two opposite coasts of America. ;) What to expect? </p>

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<p>Sounds like my D's high school. ;)</p>

119

<p>I haven't read the entire thread, but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in:</p>

<p>I faced a similar choice at one point and people told me that:</p>

<ul>
<li>The weather was better at Cal</li>
<li>I shouldn't be a wh-re for prestige</li>
<li>Cal was just as good</li>
<li>I would like being near San Francisco</li>
<li>I would like the culture of Cal</li>
</ul>

<p>It was all BS. Ivy degrees like Princeton open doors that you cannot even imagine right now. She will have access to an entirely new world that will PERMANENTLY CHANGE HER LIFE FOR THE BETTER. It is hard to overestimate how important this is. Things that are commonplace at Princeton (like having dinner with world-class professors, getting a Fulbright, going to top law/med/business schools) are hard-won at Berkeley.</p>

<p>I cannot stress this enough. $7 - 10k a year is NOT that much money for these opportunities. This may be the only time in her life that she has this chance, and will never be able to buy it again, for $7k or $150k or any price.</p>

<p>GO TO PRINCETON. I mean it.</p>

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<p>myau,
Congrats!! Your D rose to the challenge, and with a support team like you behind her, she'll succeed. She'll gain so much from the diversity of P students and the experience of living on opposite coast</p>