@shoot4moon,
Why does she leave for school at 6 am?
Before you switch from honors English to the lower level English…check the workload for that course. You may find it isn’t much less than the honors class.
One other question: does she do her homework without any electronics interrupting? While teens often think they can multitask, they can’t. Snapchat, texting, and multiple windows open can easily contribute to turning 3 hours of homework into 4.
" my D runs xc, indoor and outdoor track, and is taking a schedule almost identical to your child’s. The workload you describe is about 2.5 hours less per night than what D has". Your daughter has 6-6.5 hours of homework for a schedule of 2 APs, 2 honors classes and a low level language class? Plus working all weekend? That seems excessive. The reason my daughter is getting 3.5-4 hours of homework per night plus having to work all weekend is because she is taking 3 APs, 3 honors classes, language and writing. No fluff, no study halls. This was her choice and I don’t blame the school for it. I don’t see why more work should be required since our teachers have a pretty good track record of AP scores.
I would be concerned that dropping Honors English will limit her ability to take AP Lang & Comp next year. I think that class is quite useful for doing well on the reading/writing parts of the ACT and/or SAT.
We are in CA and have pretty much the same PE/sports setup you describe – sport earns PE credit, 4 semesters of PE/sport required, 6-period day, usually must take study hall or teacher’s aide if your sport is after school (because the school isn’t generally funded to teach kids 7 subjects). The general PE classes are just as boring as others have described, and “online” PE is not allowed. There are a few not-quite-so-boring PEs that your school may offer–we have self-defense, swimming, and badminton as non-sport PEs.
My son did volleyball team freshman year, and it was really time consuming. When he tried out sophomore year, he didn’t make the team, to a number of people’s surprise. Some of the boys urged him to appeal the decision, but within a couple days, he was feeling really relieved about not having that 10-15 hrs/week time commitment. He emailed a professor that he’d wanted to work with that week and got invited to come look around. He’s been doing research there since then – about 2 afternoons per week during school and nearly full time this past summer. He loves it, but he could never do that (and several of his other ECs) if he hadn’t given up sports teams. (My son is taking off-season boys volleyball PE to complete his 4 semesters, but won’t try out for the sport in spring.)
I did both track and XC ages ago, and I think track was more time-consuming, since the meets were all day. But, they were generally on Saturdays, while XC races between just a few schools could be on weekdays. I suppose if she did both sports freshman year, you already know which is more time consuming.
Another way my son cut back a bit was to take sophomore World History as dual-enrollment at the community college. That was actually less work than AP World Hist, and the teachers for that class at his school didn’t have good reviews. The community college history class required longer and more involved papers, but not the nightly note-taking. With the 6-period limit, taking history off campus let him fit in an AP science, which wouldn’t have otherwise fit. He’s taking APUSH at school this year and math at the community college, partially because of better APUSH teachers than AP World teachers.
Regarding talking to the school:
OP, is homework load a thing that parents or teachers are discussing at your school? Maybe there is a setting where you can make this more about the school and less about your D?
Our PTA has a subcommittee on “Replacing the Race to Nowhere” that I guess is trying to reduce the supposedly onerous amount of homework our HS gives. (However, comparing the amount of homework and summer work that kids talk about here on CC to our school, I think some of our parents are a bit out of touch with what onerous is at other schools.) I’ve been busy at their meeting times the past couple years, so I probably don’t know the latest about what they are doing.
Anyway, one thing the school has done is to institute a modified schedule that has blocks of three long classes per day on Wednesday and Thursday, with the regular 6 classes on the other days. The two block schedule days have a 40 minute study hall that can be used in various ways. I think this new schedule has reduced the stress level somewhat. Providing an “embedded support period” like the 40 minute study hall was something that was strongly recommended during the previous accreditation cycle, reportedly because of the number of students getting Ds and Fs in honors/AP classes.
Another thing was reminding parents that there are many colleges in the US. Our school doesn’t send many kids to the tippy-tops, so this is more reminding parents that there is a whole CSU system in addition to the flagship UCs, that some WUE schools are affordable, and that some LACs have good financial and/or merit aid.
Other things the committee was advocating last I knew were less math homework (don’t know how realistic that is) and a small number of “one day late” homework passes from each teacher. Some parents were against AP classes in general, but our school doesn’t have an honors level between “regular” and AP. So, it’s either rigorous homework and tests or classes with essentially no homework.
The lessons of healthy decisions and balance in life are important ones, and some kids have to work harder at it.
I have one kid who struggles with long nights of homework, wanting to do the very best possible in every assignment (and actually reads the history text book). He has more courses then your D, including 4 APs, but doesn’t want to drop any, although that is what I suggested to him earlier in the semester.
His siblings all get through (pretty much the same) HW with less time and consternation. Their GPAs are a bit lower than his, but they seem to come by that “balance” more naturally.
He is a 3-season athlete, and I would never suggest he give that up. The regular activity is a huge outlet, away from the books, with peers that he enjoys. I would rather see his GPA suffer.
Four-day weeks are godsends for this kid, and we have two coming up (no school nov3 & nov11)!!
It may not be unusual to have 3.5 to 4 hours of work many nights for top students, but not every night (if there is a test In a class there is usually no homework that night). Working from after dinner until 10 or 11 is not uncommon. It would seem excessive if that happens very night or if she has to spend all weekend working as well.
Before suggesting she drop a level or. Complaining to the school, I would sit down with her to see what is taking so long. Is it possible she is doing too much work? Is she spending too much time studying for an easy quiz? Or agonizing over perfecting a paragraph? She may not change that behavior even if she changes levels. She may have to learn some way to get herself to recognize good enough vs perfect.
I rarely post but this story was my daughter story; we dealt with it in the usual way, review study habits, review devices in the room etc…then when finally the student who loved school started to hate school and lose self esteem we knew it was not just homework…some students learn that it may be a processing problem or learning disability…just because they get “A’s” does not mean their may not be a hidden cause. Once this was diagnosis, addressed and corrected the studying went from toiling to manageable. My daughter never was not an “A” student through grade and middle school and even first semester freshman year but it was explained to us, that it was better to have discovered it in high school (high-demanding) than crashing and burning in college which many do when they have a reading disability and the reading goes from 10-20 pages a class to 40-80.
Oh and those assessment test that our schools love to give, she never did not score outside the top 3%. So technically on paper she looked like a high ability student but in reality it was really a very hard working kid that was living through her own “hell”.
“Most of all* we look for students who make the most of their opportunities and the resources available to them, and who are likely to continue to do so throughout their lives.”
The thing is opportunities are not necessarily just taking a whole slew of AP courses. I think opportunities can be missed because a child is so overloaded with homework or doing things to make them look “good” whatever that means rather than things to help explore interests or passions. There are a huge number of resources outside of the school environment. If Harvard is only interested in a student taking a hard curriculum at the expense of taking advantage of opportunities out side of the classroom then I’d rather my child not be interested in Harvard.
What @mom2and said. This was my daughter’s experience - working from dinner until 10 or 11 many nights, but not every single night. She would generally take Saturday off from school work. Much of Sunday would be spent on school work, though it was interspersed with watching Netflix.
Some kids are more efficient than others. One student I know takes almost a page of notes for every page of her AP History textbook she reads. That is unsustainable, especially as one moves to college. Some kids don’t shut their phones off and the little distractions here and there slow them down.
Based on other posts from CC parents, it seems that at some schools, the work is excessive (multiple essays per week, constant exams, many pages of reading, hours of math homework every night). I haven’t heard of this where I live or in neighboring school districts if kids are taking, say 3-4 AP’s. Maybe once you get up to 5-6, this might happen. But, my daughter never went over 3 in a year. We thought that was enough and allowed her to focus mostly on her interests.
Kids are overloaded and stressed, but cutting back means making that choice to be less competitive. Health and sanity is very important but there are students who somehow manage to handle all this stuff.
We have just been through this twice. Both good students and college recruited athletes (DIII). Here are my comments:
- The right approach depends on the student.
- Remember that colleges want to see what you can do very well. So take as few classes as possible. Take PE even if you are an athlete, and always take a study hall.
- Plan a 4 year schedule. Plan 6-10 APs, and no more, even for the very best student.
- Take a PSAT or ACT to begin to assess what colleges you are targeting.
- Focus efforts on English, Math, and either Physics, Chemistry and Bio. unless you are premed.
- Take one language, stick with it and do well.
ECs: Assess how good she is at her sport and how much she likes it. Consider whether her sport is really her best talent. Could she be better at some other endeavor? Does she like it? Consider switching.
Summer: Be sure to use summer time effectively. Taking a break is fine, but they should be learning something i the summer. Even if it is only a plan to read 5 or 6 books. If they are able to get involved in summer programs, that is fine too. Use it as a chance to explore potential college interests. Participate in an Engineering program, Math program, biology program, or a coding class. Anything to move forward. Also use some time during the summer to begin early preparation for SAT or ACT.
I hope some of this is helpful.
As I have said before, our experience is that you can get into Harvard without taking every AP available, but if you don’t you probably need to be doing something worthwhile with the time you have freed up.
Once more…check the actual work load of th lower level from honors English class. Your student will still need to read, and write papers. And take tests. You may find that the actual work time isn’t less than that for honors.
“Would love to hear from parents who have bucked the system, forced kids into regular classes and still found their kids loved school, loved life and got into a solid university. Does that ever happen?”
It is with us, although I would never force my kids to do anything. D16 chose to bulk up on AB/IB science/math classes this year, drop language (she has 3 years of spanish already), and do on level history rather than APush. She wanted to do what she likes and what she’s good at, versus “looking good” for colleges. She also took an art class, because she’s always wanted to take an art class, but her schedule didn’t really permit it on the “old” track.
I told her it’ll either work out well for colleges or kick her in the butt (we don’t have a crystal ball), but the important part to us is that she feels connected to the learning and engaged by it, and she’s not miserable and asking herself what’s the point, but instead excited about the future. She chose her course load this year, and she is doing very well. There is still a ton of work, but it feels meaningful to her rather than onerous. She still grumps, but I’d worry if she didn’t grump. But there is a stark difference in the grumping this year to the “why does this matter” bleakness of last year, and for the better.
I’d rather have a happy, engaged kid at a regular university rather than a burned out shell that’s capable of performing at an elite level (and she is, and has done that, been there, gotten the t shirts), but is empty on the inside.
And for me this was a big shift in my thinking, because when you’re bright, your husband is very bright, and the people in the know tell you your kids are extraordinarily bright, you think Ivy League here we come, but it’s just not that cut and dried. Thank god.
I agree with thumper1 about checking the level of the lower-level classes. They can often have a lot of group projects, and kids who don’t want to turn in a shoddy project can end up re-doing the work for weaker team members. That was true for my son even in Honors 10th grade English. His AP classes seem to have fewer group projects than Honors classes and also fewer of what someone on another thread called “cotton ball” projects. Those two types of projects can be far more time consuming than regular essays, studying, etc.
Where is it written that a student must take 3+ AP classes at one time to be successful and competitive?
In our district (highly competitive public school), the very competitive kids who can afford it hire a lot of help to get them through as much as possible. There are stories of tutors writing papers for kids so that they have more time to do other things. Because a certain segment (oftentimes with that professional help) is able to get it all done, the school doesn’t realize that the workload is excessive. Of course, the professionals can’t do everything for you, and there are quite a few stories of kids doing very well in certain AP classes that are paper-heavy, but doing poorly on the AP exam. Since this kind of thing can be written off as “oh, that kid just isn’t a good test taker,” the system is never fixed.
^ I agree with gossamer. The school’s response is always that there are some kids who can do it well, therefore the problem lies with your kid. NO! That is not always true. The kids who handle it often have their secrets, and cheating is one of them. Tutors and parents who do the work is another. My two older kids went to tippy top colleges and both said the workload was less than in high school. The work they had was not easier, but the quantity was less, or at least if felt less because class hours were fewer. And D competed for an intense top ten Div I athletic program at her university, and still actually had more time than in high school. For example, in high school she could just handle her classes and her sport during the academic year. In college, she was also able to work a few hours, and be a VP of a busy campus organization.
Also, thumper is correct. D had APUSH last year, and AP Euro this year, and her required-for-graduation Global Studies class has more time-consuming work than either AP. Lot of projects for which all the learning takes place in the first 10 minutes, and after that it’s looking up photos to pretty it up, making posters, doing groups work, watching assigned TV programs, etc. Similarly, freshman and sophomore honors English were BRUTAL–far worse than this year’s AP Lang, and that class has a lot of work by any standard.