<p>I thought I'd make a new thread so that I wouldn't hijack a previous thread.</p>
<p>NorCalGuy posted...</p>
<p>Being average at a top medical school is not the same as being average at a regular medical school. **My school's average USMLE score this year was close to 240*. So, the "average" student my school can easily end up in radiology or anesthesiology. Hence, a greater percentage of students from top med schools end up in competitive specialties. </p>
<p>For the uber competitive specialties like plastics, derm, ENT, **etc., attending a prestigious medical school is very helpful. For the less competitive specialties like radiology or anesthesiology, I think it's helpful if your goal is a big-time academic residency program like Mass Gen or UCSF or whatever. There are plenty of students with **210 or 220 USMLE **scores **getting into radiology or anesthesiology because there's a lot of programs in those fields. However, getting into the prestigious residency programs in those fields will require a stellar application. That's where coming from a prestigious medical school can be helpful. *</p>
<p>So...what is the deal with different specialties and how competitive is each one in regards to securing a residency spot? And what do these numbers mean? What are good numbers? What are "so so" numbers?</p>
<p>Some fields are competitive and don’t have a lot of spots. These fields include plastic surgery, radiation oncology, etc. Their candidates are typically exceptional (the best of the best) and have ridiculous research. Many times, applicants to these fields have to apply to a back-up specialty because the unmatched rates are just too high. For example, someone wanting to do plastics (unless they have a 270 USMLE score, all honors, and 5 publications) may have to apply to both plastic surgery and general surgery programs as a backup.</p>
<p>Then, there are the programs I consider to be on the 2nd tier in terms of competitiveness. These include radiology, ophthalmology, ortho, anesthesiology, etc. You don’t have to be a superstar to get into a low-end program in these specialties. However, to get into the best radiology or the best ortho programs, you do have to be a superstar.</p>
<p>The NRMP match data is all online. So, it’s not hard to look at the average USMLE score of each specialty to get an idea of relative competitiveness. But, keep in mind, there can be a lot of so-so programs that drag down the average score. For example, the average USMLE score for people who successfully matched into radiology is only 235 or so. But, honestly, most applicants accepted to halfway decent academic radiology programs have 240 or above. My school is only so-so in radiology (as my radiology residency director once said, “If we were to divide all the programs into 6 tiers, our program would be 2nd tier”) but the average USMLE score was still 248 with a large percentage of AOA.</p>
<p>This is all academic to me…because A) it ain’t me and B) I’m realizing I don’t even know what is out there…but where do these rankings of resdiency come from? It appears to be one of those things that people in the know, know. My kid is talking about doing some things I didn’t even know were possible/what they are (what is a MOSH? MOSsomething surgeon). </p>
<p>Her interest appear to revolve (today) around “something ‘procedural’, probably surgery, probably dealing with oncology”. Oh, yeah. That’s clear. It seems like there are plastic surgeons , thoracic surgeons, all kinds of surgeons who do things like this (as a sub-specialty?).</p>
<p>She has interviewed and been accepted to research positions with 4 or 5 and they seem as different in specialty name as night and day…but they still take cancerous tissue out the body. Like the thoracic surgeon “is a surgical oncologist who deals with esophageal cancers”. What does that mean training-wise? What residency is that? And why isn’t that ENT? Or is it two distinct residencies? lol. Please, tell me it’s not. I need to move into my bedroom of the doctor condo before I’m on a walker.</p>
<p>What is the range of scores for the MCAT
SAT is 200-800 each, 600+ is respectable, 700+ is much better, 800s possible
MCAT is 1-45 with 30+ being respectable and what 35+ being that same much better? 40+ rare
What is the USMLE breal down?</p>
<p>MOHS surgery maybe? It’s a kind of chemosurgery for skin cancer.</p>
<p>And esophageal cancer requires a thoracic surgeon because ENTs won’t crack a chest. (Unfortunately I have way, way, way too much experience with thoracic surgical oncologists and radiation oncologists and medical oncologists…)</p>
<p>MOHS surgery maybe? It’s a kind of chemosurgery for skin cancer.</p>
<p>That’s probably it. She said the very impressive dude she interviewed with did all sorts of stuff from removing the cancer, to the pathology (something about getting a “clean line” or “clear line”) to determine to go back and get more , to running his own research lab. Sounded very vertically integrated. Soup to nuts. That has appeal to someone like her. She’s done melanoma research. But who knows? She’ll probably get her degree and join the circus.</p>
<p>Average USMLE Step 1 score is in the 222 range with a standard deviation around 23 pts (?). So a 245 is roughly 1 std dev above the mean among medical students. Obviously, this is not easy to achieve considering the average med school matriculant has a 31 MCAT score which itself is 1 std. dev above the mean of all MCAT test takers. So, assuming a normal distribution, you’d be looking at the top 16% of the top 16% of MCAT test takers getting a 245.</p>
<p>270ish is about as high as you’ll see. 250-270 is impressive to me. 230-250 is great. And, as I said, 222 is about average.</p>
<p>Clean margin. In cancer treatment, that’s what you look for when removing a cancerous growth. Means you got it all and there’s nothing left to remove.</p>
<p>If one wanted to be a practicing physician, would it matter where he or she did his or her residency as long as it was at a decent place? And where can I find out about rankings of residencies? I’m curious about Det. Med. Center and Michigan Hospital residencies because those are where a lot of med student do residencies out of a BS-MD program that I’ve applied to. </p>
<p>The highest I’ve seen online or in person is around 275 (max score is 300). </p>
<p>Someone at my school scored the equivalent of 260 on our official proctored NBME practice test around 4 months before the actual test (I scored the equivalent of 209 on the same test). I don’t know what that person got on the real thing.</p>
<p>So the average MCAT is 25-26 ish? And few of the average people get in anywhere? Seems like it might take about 1/2 std dev above the average (mean? median? dare I ask? no, forget that)</p>
<p>So, if USMLE average is 222 obviously unlike the MCAT, those average docs still go somewhere. Is there some small sample at the bottom of their pool who choke and perform dismally and don’t get a residency? What do they do? </p>
<p>I am curious when the entire thing is scored on a bell curve, someone must be at the bottom yet theoretically successfully completed 4 years of medical school. What happens to them? Have you hear stories of people with scary low scores & what happened both to cause that and where they went next?</p>
<p>And is the USMLE like MCAT a theoretical mental exam or because of all the clinicals done does it base the testing on more real life knowledge?</p>
If you’re planning to apply for fellowships. It’s a lot easier to get a prestigious cardiology fellowship if you did internal medicine at UCSF or to get an IR fellowship if you did diagnostic radiology at UCSF
You want to be the best physician possible. You don’t learn any specialty-specific stuff in medical school. Whether you want to be a surgeon or a pediatrician, you will essentially learn the same thing. It’s during residency that you build the foundation of the skills and knowledge you’ll use the rest of your life. You should be aiming to get into the best residency possible for you (which isn’t always the most prestigious one). But, residency should be important to every medical student.</p>
<p>For a US medical student, it’s rare because as long as you can pass, you will be able to do a residency somewhere. Even if your USMLE score is 195, you can probably find a psychiatry or family medicine program or pediatrics program (no disrespect to any of these specialties) to take you. </p>
<p>Many of the unmatched students are actually students who are applying to the most competitive specialties like derm or plastics. They either didn’t apply to enough programs or didn’t apply to backups or overestimated their application. It’s not that big a deal since they can just scramble or reapply in a year.</p>
<p>The difficulty of the USMLE lies in the fact that you can’t retake this test if you pass it. A passing score is only 184 or so. So, if you score above a 184, you can’t retake this test, no matter what. If you do “choke,” and you normally score 240 but you only score a 205 on the real thing, then tough noogies. If you do score below a 184, then you are allowed to retake the test. But, obviously, you don’t want to do that.</p>
<p>I am quoting mcat2’s statement in another thread:</p>
<p>“The general wisdom that is often posted here is to go to a school that you like and you are challenged but not overwhelmed. BDM once posted that, as a rule of thumb, your standard test score (e.g., SAT) should be within the top 25-30 percents of your class.”</p>
<p>Question: Is there a similar suggestion using MCAT score to judge the most appropriate tier of medical school to go to? Is it wise for a student with MCAT of 30 to go for a top ten medical school if the eventual goal is a competitive specialty residency program? Would it be better for this student to go to a lower-tier school and have a better chance to be in the top 30% of the class? let us assume that this student would end up with the same USMLE score in either school.</p>
<p>ace550, No CCer here seems to have made such a suggestion before. However, there is a suggestion of using MCAT score to judge the most appropriate tier of medical school TO APPLY TO so that his/her chance of getting interview invites would be increased. </p>
<p>Your question is a good one though. DS expressed some concern about going to a medical school where a majority of students there have the stats of 3.9+/39+. In my guess, what he was saying is that learning the art or science or practice of medicine well is not the same as being the best test takers in the class. I do not know whether he has some points or not. (This is likely one of the reasons why he was not very enthusiastic in pursuing the very top medical schools – It does not mean he could make it there even if he had tried his best though. He just even did not want to give it a try from day one.)</p>
It seems like there are plastic surgeons , thoracic surgeons, all kinds of surgeons who do things like this (as a sub-specialty?).</p>
lol. Please, tell me it’s not. I need to move into my bedroom of the doctor condo before I’m on a walker.</p>