Future career question (in physics)

Parent Cafe
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<p>Hello parents, I'm back to ask more questions [yay]!</p>

<p>Alright, so I guess I have to explain my situation first. I was a pretty terrible high school student.. only when I happened to become friends with the top 10 student group in my class sometime midway through junior year (in my physics class, incidentally) that I realized that I really wanted to be top dog in academics. So I decided to load up my schedule full of AP classes and even though it was a jump, I made it with mostly A's (it was senior year after all and I didn't have much motivation other than to prove something to myself and others perhaps). I took the ACT and got a 31 or 32 without really studying/practicing at all after doing terribly on SATs the year before, so I can confidently say I could get my score up by a point or two.</p>

<p>So I proved to myself that I could really do the work required, and I had made the decision in that past year to do engineering. I live in Georgia, and GaTech conveniently has an engineering transfer program with a bunch of colleges around the state. A lot of stuff happened, and I won't bore with details but basically I've decided against doing engineering and I know now that I want to definitely major in physics and perhaps also major in mathematics. I'm almost done with my summer courses and I blazed through them, and I'm attending a low cost university in Georgia.</p>

<p>Okay, so there's a small problem. I want to shoot really high for graduate school physics. I want to get my Ph.D in theoretical physics (hence the mathematics), and I want to be able to continue my research afterwards in a career very much and I'm willing to devote all of my time and energy to doing it. The university I'm at right now though doesn't provide a huge amount of physics research.. they don't actually have a graduate physics program. They do have a few theoretical physics researchers and I've already gotten in touch with them to be doing research in the fall, but I'm not sure about this school.</p>

<p>My plan had always been to do a year at this school and then transfer to GaTech, and when I decided on physics instead of engineering I decided it could work just as well that way. But I'm having second thoughts on GaTech.. I mean I wouldn't be miserable there but I could definitely be happier somewhere else. I love the idea of college towns and a nice intellectual community of students. I'd also like to be around more students who are like me and interested in their academics as my current school the minimum GPA required was a 2.0 with something like a 950 total SAT. Also it's in the middle of nowhere and it's very hot. I don't mean to bash the students that go there because they are all friendly and great people, but I think I can find a place that would be a better fit.</p>

<p>I've been thinking about UGA, but there's one problem. If I go to GaTech, I know I can get research there somehow since the entire school revolves around research. Thing is that I don't know if I can meet my goal of that 3.8ish GPA at GaTech as it's known for very hard work loads and professors. Would it hurt me at all to go to a school like UGA and do a little bit of research and be able to keep my goal of a high GPA as well as be happier? Is getting published (which is mostly luck I understand) during undergrad research almost a requirement to get to a place like UCSB, CalTech, Michigan, etc.?</p>

<p>Also, I was wondering if anyone could help out and post some affordable colleges, preferably more northern than southern as I like cooler weather. I think that 25 grand per year is potentially manageable for me, and if it has a good physics program then great. But really, I just want to know if I can get away with not going to a place like GaTech and still get into a top 15 Ph.D program for physics. I'm definitely very excited to be doing research so that would have to be a requirement.</p>

<p>Sorry if my post was boring but I felt like I had to explain a lot. Thanks for helping.</p>

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<p>^^^^
It looks like they have some research at UGA
[UGA</a> Physics and Astronomy | Departmental Research Facilities](<a href=“http://www.physast.uga.edu/facilities.html]UGA”>http://www.physast.uga.edu/facilities.html)</p>

<p>I know these physics grad programs are very selective, and I’ll admit I don’t know a lot about them. But I don’t know why you couldn’t get in to a highly ranked program from UGA. Maybe somebody will disabuse me of this assumption.</p>

<p>One thing I have heard is that successful applicants to these schools virtually all have 3.8 or higher GPA, and almost all of them have perfect 800s on the Math portion of the general GRE, and the Physics GRE subject test (where it’s required).</p>

<p>If worse comes to worse you can always do the intermediate step of getting a Masters someplace, then transferring.</p>

<p>Where are you in the Physics curriculum? Are you in upper or lower division? Because Physics can be tough and I noticed a marked leap in difficulty between my freshman physics class and my UD Mechanics, E&M, and QM. You want to keep on the ball and really learn your math (I didn’t and it was tough even getting through undergrad).</p>

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<p>Thanks bovertine. I’ve got a few books on QM as well as a textbook that virtually covers the first three portions of calculus based physics. I’ve got a calculus book that goes all the way through a bit of differential equations and I’ve been learning a lot of this stuff on my own for quite a while. A lot of the higher level physics looks really tough, but at the same time I’m very interested in it. I like the mind-bending concepts behind math and physics, so it’s actually fun for me to learn about them.</p>

<p>And yeah, I think when I was looking at the US News thing (I know that’s not everything, but it’s a good measurement) for physics and UGA is ranked lower than the top 50, whereas GT is ranked something around the 20’s. Thing is that I really just want to make sure I’m getting equal opportunity by going to a place like UGA instead of a higher ranked school. I suppose GPA as well as GRE scores count just as much as research, and of course getting published isn’t something I can look to do as there’s no way to know when some researcher will make a discovery (or if I can even be a part of it), but I just can’t get rid of this nagging feeling that perhaps there’s something I don’t know about these undergrads getting into the top schools and what they did to do so.</p>

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<p>You’re making a bigger deal out the USNews UG rankings than you need to. If you want to go to a “top” grad school in physics, your grades, GRE score and letters of recommendation are much more important than where you went to undergrad. (LORs can make or break your app. Good LORs can sometimes overcome so-so GREs. Bad LORs can kill a application with stellar scores/grades.) </p>

<p>UG research is nice. Publication is nice, but no graduate dept seriously expects most undergrad students to have significant research under their belt before coming to grad school. I wouldn’t let that be a determining factor when considering where to transfer to.</p>

<p>You say you want theoretical physics. That’s awfully vague. There are lots of fields and subfields in physics–all of them have theorists working in them. Can you focus down your area of interest just a little? QM? High energy? Astro? Solid state? Biophysics? It would help when making recommendations for schools to look at.</p>

<p>(BTW, the job market for purely theoretical physicists–even with PhDs–is awful…always has been.)</p>

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<p>What about trying to transfer to the place you hope to do graduate work NOW? Some places it’s easier to get into the grad school, get TA’s etc, if you are already there as an undergrad. Then they know you, what you have taken, how good a student you are, yadda, yadda. And you have a chance to get to know what the professors are studying and cozy up to one or two of them in hopes of getting some research opportunity - either as an undergrad or grad student.</p>

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<p>I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but I have to admit that reading about the horrible job market for theoretical physicists led to a serious “Oh no” moment for me. DS will be starting college this fall with plans to major in physics. His dream is to get a PhD and have a career that focuses on research rather than teaching. I know this is all very far off, and he could change his mind several times along the way. He is, however, someone who thrives on higher math, theory and abstraction and who has virtually no interest in more applied sciences, such as biology. I would love to hear that there is some hope that he will, one day, be happily and gainfully employed.</p>

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<p><a href=“BTW,%20the%20job%20market%20for%20purely%20theoretical%20physicists–even%20with%20PhDs–is%20awful…always%20has%20been.”>QUOTE=WayOutWestMom</a>

[/QUOTE]

I hope to be completing a PhD in theoretical physics soon, and feel like I have become totally unemployable. As an older student (way too old, lol) with enough degrees to paper the bathroom, I just have such a weird background that no one will even consider it. I expect to be going to work for DH cleaning and painting in our apartments as soon as I’m done with school. If I wasn’t so close at this point, I would just walk away from it all. ;(</p>

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<p>sylvan8798, I’m so sorry to hear about your tough job situation. As someone with a graduate degree in political philosophy, I feel your pain! I will be returning to the job market to help pay my son’s tuition, and my prospects probably are similar to yours.</p>

<p>What advice would you have for someone just starting college with a love for all things that point toward theoretical physics?</p>

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<p>Have you considered doing summer research at another school since your school doesn’t have as many opportunities? Something like Caltech’s SURF program, for example?</p>

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<p>Do not. Repeat: Do NOT transfer to undergrad where you hope to go to grad school. In physics especially, depts are reluctant to keep their undergrads for grad school. It’s called “academic inbreeding” and the general consensus among top grad schools is that they want to stir up the talent pool and both get their promising undergrads exposure to the wider academic universe and to bring in fresh blood for grad studies.</p>

<p>sylvan–I hear you. Theorists have always been almost unemployable unless they: A) walk on water or B) are willing to move outside physics academia and work in other fields like cryptography/business/banking etc. </p>

<p>DH was strongly discouraged by his grad program (a top 5 in his area) from focussing completely on theory. He will write an occasion theory paper even to this day, but he mostly does basic applied research in solid state. Of the 3 pure theorists he went to grad school with–only 1 is still in physics. He’s prof at a top physics uni now, but it took him about 15 years of postdocs and other employment to get that place.</p>

<p>zandari–keep an open mind. Physics is such a broad field. Some areas are much more employable than others (even for theorists). Hot areas right now are in quantum computing, nanoscience and biophysics. Also there is such a thing as basic research. Technically, basic research is “applied” but there is often new ground-breaking theory involved there too. </p>

<p>As a side note–today’s hottest physics areas are often are boundary-crossing. QC–crosses between computer science, engineering and physics; biophysics crosses between biology, chemistry and physics. Nanoscience is electrical/mechanical engineering, chemistry and physics.</p>

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<p>zandari - Interdisciplinary seems to be one of the big buzzwords right now. Physicists are working on biology problems, economics problems, you name it. Medical physics is big too, and you can make good money without having to work directly with patients. My advice would be to think outside the box. Think beyond the traditional physics path.</p>

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<p>Alternatively, if like working with patients, medical physics allows that too. </p>

<p>D1 has her BS in physics and mathematics, with 2 years as a research asst. in a high energy physics lab. While it’s now probable she’ll go to medical school next year, she also has offers for grad fellowships in nanoscience (as the group’s theorist! heaven help her!) and in electrical & nuclear engineering (which is where the medical physics group is located). For a PhD in medical/health physics there is 1 year of clinical training–which does indeed involve significant patient contact, usually through an associated medical school. MS degrees don’t require the clinical training portion of the program.</p>

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<p>Well in terms of discipline, I’m pretty interested in most fields of theoretical physics. That is, cosmology/astrophysics as well as elementary particle (and perhaps something crazy like superstring theory) physics. Most of my life I wanted to do computer science, and I think that if I double major or minor with mathematics then I can do research in quantum computing which is something I find pretty interesting.</p>

<p>Realistically, I’ve read a lot about these fields but I can’t say that I truly know what each field is like and how much I like studying one subject over another. I think I’m down to do anything theoretical in the fields related to the very small (QM-related research I suppose). If not, I can always take the consolation prize as a wall street quant. (if such wall st. jobs still exist in 10 years) or software developer. I’ve definitely thought about how hard it will be to get into research in physics, definitely a much harder path I think than engineering, but I would be kicking myself for the rest of my life for not giving it a shot atleast. I’ll put everything I can into it, so we’ll see what happens.</p>

<p>Also, I’ve been looking at some schools out of state. To be honest, UGA isn’t really my first choice. Like I mentioned, I’d rather be more northern than southern since I like cooler weather. Since I don’t have many lists to go off of, I was just going through the top physics schools and I found that I really liked U of Colorado Boulder, U of Maryland and Stony Brook (though Colorado I really liked, I’d love to live in Colorado, mountains are great). Anyone know of schools like those that I might be interested in that have some decent physics research going on that I could get involved in? Preferably somewhere with good financial aid and maybe roundabout $25 grandish a year or less.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the replies, y’all are very helpful.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the helpful suggestions. I’ll talk to DS about the importance of keeping an open mind about interesting ways of applying physics. Considering that his other passions are music, art and creative writing, physics still might be his best bet for eventual employment!</p>

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<p>String theory has fallen on a bit out favor lately since there seem to be some irresolvable problems with. Don’t fall in love with the field.</p>

<p>Since you’re just a sophomore, you really haven’t had any exposure to most of the areas of physics. No QM, no condensed matter, no elementary particles… D hated physics and in fact switched majors because she was sure she was too dumb to do physics, but later came back and fell in love with quantum mechanics. Took both undergrad and grad quantum, won the Feynmann Prize at graduation for best QM student. (Not that there actually any jobs for quantum theorists…hence why she’s applying to medical school.)</p>

<p>UC Boulder has a great undergrad program. So does UMaryland. OOS aid at Colorado schools is generally awful. Don’t know about the SUNYs or College Park.</p>

<p>If you grades are strong (3.5 or higher) might look at University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. Not the best ranked school around, but its does have offer good aid to OOS transfers. The physics dept has one Nobel prize winner and one of the founders of the field of quantum computing–and sent one 2009 graduate to CalTech to work with Kip Thorne last year. (It was a big deal as there are only about 15 physics majors/year, including BAs.) Plenty of opportunities to work in the various labs, and there is a brand new nanoscience program that has TONS of funding and is co-managed with NM’s two National Labs (Los Alamos and Sandia).</p>

<p>[UNM</a> Physics and Astronomy Department Web Site](<a href=“http://panda.unm.edu/]UNM”>http://panda.unm.edu/)</p>

<p>[Transfer</a> Scholarships :: Scholarship Office | The University of New Mexico](<a href=“http://scholarship.unm.edu/scholarships/transfer.php]Transfer”>http://scholarship.unm.edu/scholarships/transfer.php)</p>

<p>With the Amigo, COA at UNM would be around $17,000</p>

<p>Another school is New Mexico Tech. Small school, excellent reputation, plenty of opportunities to get in the lab. Ranked as one of the best buys in college education. Sends its graduate to some very highly ranked grad programs all over the US and Europe. (One 2007 grad is now at CERN. He went to HS with D1.)</p>

<p>COA for OOS is $26,400/year. Some transfer scholarships worth $2000-$6000/year available.</p>

<p>BTW, the Nation Radio Astronomy Observatory/VLA staff shares facilities with NM Tech–in case you’re into radio astronomy and astrophysics.</p>

<p>[New</a> Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology: Science Engineering Research University](<a href=“http://www.nmt.edu/]New”>http://www.nmt.edu/)</p>

<p>And New Mexico has lots of mountains. Not as cool as Boulder in the summer, but alot warmer in the winter. Some of the best sites for sport rock climbing in the world.</p>

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<p>I majored in Astronomy as an undergraduate but ended up going to medical school and becoming an MD, now in private practice. The problem with getting a PhD in very theoretical areas of Physics like String Theory, Cosmology and some aspects of Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity is that there are not many practical applications in these fields where an employer could expect to make money from the discoveries that you make. It is true that Quantum Physics is what makes semiconductors possible and they have had a profound impact on our economy and society as a whole. However, most of the research done in theoretical Physics is geared towards gaining a better understanding of how the Universe operates rather than developing commercially viable technology.</p>

<p>In good economic times when money is more readily available companies and governments may be willing to fund research where the knowledge gained is for its own sake. In times like these employers are more likely to be looking for researchers, such as PhDs in engineering, who are trained to develop theories that have practical commercial applications as opposed to simply expanding our knowledge and understanding of Nature.</p>

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<p>Some things that I just thought of…</p>

<p>Do universities normally allow other students to do research in their labs, or is this frowned upon? I’m sure they would give priority to their own students, but does this happen at all?</p>

<p>Also, someone mentioned CalTech’s SURF fellowship program. I did some reading on that and it seems very interesting, something I definitely will try to get into. Are there other good programs from top schools that do this sort of thing?</p>

<p>One more thing. I’ve been reading around a lot looking for colleges that might suit me best. As I [hope I] described in my first post, I’m extremely passionate about physics and mathematics, to the point where doing work in it is actually fun for me (I enjoy reading the textbooks and doing challenging problems as well as reading up on the cutting-edge research). I’ve found one school that, as a whole, matches the amount of passion I have. Only problem is, it happens to be CalTech. Seeing as they admit no more than 30 applicants on transfer every year, I can’t hold my breath on that. But I really love everything I hear about the culture there, especially since it’s so math and science oriented. Are there other schools that mirror this sort of culture?</p>

<p>Thanks again for everyone’s advice.</p>

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<p>MIT has a culture that is probably similar to the one at Caltech but unfortunately it is also probably as hard to get into. I think for a college to to be able to accomodate a large number of transfers it has to have a large number of freshmen and sophmores flunk out or transfer to other schools. Someone who gets into MIT or Caltech is not likely to be interested in transfering someplace else. In addition, nearly all the students admitted to those schools as freshmen have such strong qualifications that very few will not be able to do college level work and flunk out.</p>

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<p>hadsed-
IMHO you are investing far too much worry in ruminating about the very best school you can get into for undergrad, and this "theoretical/experiimental/research divide. The best thing is to just pick a few programs (throw Caltech on there for the heck of it if you want), apply, and get started.</p>

<p>For most undergrad degrees at most schools, I believe the Physcis majors will all take the same basic classes, with a couple electives. So it doesn’t matter that much if you want to study general Physics or Astronomy , or whatever. 50% of your program (LD) will be basically the same as every other Physics major, and actually most engineering or physical science majors. 75-80% of the program will be the same for ALL physics majors, no matter what you think you want to specialize in. You can pick your area of focus (or not pick an area of focus) when you get near the end if you like. Granted, if you want to major in “Astrophysics” you may have to take one or two LD astronomy classes, but that’s not a big deal as far as scheduling. These decisions are far more critical and relevant when you actually know pretty much about what you want to do (after your BS or BA) when you enter grad school.</p>

<p>Physics is a tough major with lots of math. For most but the very brightest, it is tough slogging and I don’t care if you are Richard Feynman or Joe Blow, you need to know the math and you need to work problems. At least in undergrad, which is what I know about. For me it was rewarding to get through, but it wasn’t easy.</p>

<p>Here’s the UCLA Physics website. I just picked this as sort of a reasonable Physics dept. Note that the undergraduate concentrations in Physics all require a lot of the same courses-</p>

<p>[Physics</a> & Astronomy](<a href=“http://academics.physics.ucla.edu/ugrad/index.php]Physics”>http://academics.physics.ucla.edu/ugrad/index.php)</p>

<p>Here’s another fun place to look. My alma mater’s website where they still list some homework problems and solutions. It can give you a feel for the type of probs they give Physics majors, again, at a reasonable UG program. The Freshman Physics course for Physics majors is the Physics 4 series. Physics 2 is for Engineers and Physical science majors. THe UD courses are number 100s I believe. I have no way of knowing, but from limited knowledge a lot of these problem would probably be trivial for many Caltech students.</p>

<p>[UCSD</a> Physics – Current Students: Physics Course Web Pages](<a href=“http://physics.ucsd.edu/students/courses/weblinks/]UCSD”>UC San Diego | Term Not Found)</p>

<p>Note- Some links take you to restricted pages so you have to search through. I find these fun challenges, even at my advancing age. Not to work them. For me it is a struggle just to understand a lot of the solutions at my advancing age. I certainly hope I was better at them when I took the classes.</p>

<p>Good luck and enjoy!</p>

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<p>Physics major from Ga. Tech here, but my experience was so long ago as to be irrelevant to this discussion. I did not contemplate going to grad school in physics, but one of my professors did invite me to apply as a PhD candidate for research in his area. It was way too narrow for me. I first did a stint teaching HS physics and math (2 years), but then returned to grad school (back at Ga Tech) in Information Science (sort of a theoretical computer science). I’ve had various research and academic jobs since, including a 2-year appointment in the Comp Sci Dept at CMU (AI Lab). My big interest, physics-wise, was cosmology, but that’s not exactly a wise career choice.</p>