Transferring for Physics program?

Parents Forum
1

My S is thinking of transferring schools. He likes his LAC which is a pretty good school, but he wants to get a PhD in Physics and feels like he’d have a better chance of grad school if he went to slightly better UG. I disagree; well, I think getting into a PhD program is more about grades and recommendations than the name on the diploma.

However, he got straight As last semester and says now that he would also like to be surrounded by kids who are more serious about their studies or more intellectual/focused. He doesn’t want to be the “smartest person in the room” because he thinks he learns better by being pushed.

Frankly, I thought his current school was pretty tough but who am I to judge. Anyway, I know nothing about transferring to a school like JHU or an Ivy, and I want to be able to help him if/when he asks for my advice (LOL, I know). DO things like showing interest, EC etc matter like they do when applying as a freshman? Or is it all about GPA and letters of rec?

2

As a physics professor, I can confirm that you are correct about getting into a good graduate program. It is more about your performance and what you do to prepare yourself. There are plenty of Ph.D. physicists coming out of LACs. However, if his school does not offer a full complement of core courses, then his preparation might be a bit lacking compared to someone coming out of a program where the courses are offered every year and full sequences are offered.

For example, the best prepared students usually have 2 semesters of Classical Mechanics, E&M and Quantum Mechanics at the Junior/Senior level and one semester of Statistical Physics at the junior level. The best students at my university, Illinois Tech, even take graduate courses in their Senior year and they say that really prepared them very well for graduate programs.

The other aspect that might make it advantageous for him to transfer is access to sponsored research programs and working close to graduate students. All schools realize that research experience is key to making a good graduate application and there are opportunities at every school and clearly there are nationwide opportunities at REU programs in the summers. However, being able to work on a funded research program during the year is sometimes a plus.

As for getting into the schools you mention, I really do not know. Some schools will expect you to transfer only after the first two years and may schools do not offer very generous financial aid to transfer students. You need to call and ask what the transfer parameters might be and see what aid might be available to make it financially doable.

3

Yes, agree with reply #2 that you and he should check into what junior/senior physics course offerings will be available to him at his current school.

4

Thank you. He is also doing REU applications for summer research and exploring all sorts of ways of getting into one of those programs. If he only wanted to transfer for purposes of getting into grad school, I would tell him to not make the effort, but it appears he also wants the intellectual challenge too. He toured JHU and liked it a lot although the Physics building is pretty dreary.

5

No idea about transferring to those schools, but he might find a happy middle road by branching out his options. He could transfer to a state university and find what he is looking for and then go the JHU route for grad school.

6

I would have him talk to his advisor/professor at his school first. It might be that he could be the super-star in physics at his current school and garner enthusiastic recommendations. If he was a smaller fish in a big pond would he have the same opportunities? He might if the physics program was larger and had more resources.

Can he be pushed by doing research with a professor instead of by peers in the classroom?

Also take into account finances…if he is getting a merit scholarship now, it is unlikely he would if he transferred.

Also see if his college has any affiliations…like some LACs have 3-2 programs with engineering schools…at least they would be familiar with the courses at the LAC.

7

Agree with above. Following is based on son’s and his cohort’s experience–

doing a senior thesis was very important

another option, rather than transferring, is to do a junior year at a place like CalTech

there’s a fair amount of collaboration. it might be possible for your son to do a REU or junior year elsewhere and use that experience to develop a senior thesis with the host institution and his home campus, i.e. collaborate with his mentors at each place.

(pressed for time… please excuse sloppiness above… son & cohort were physics and either math or CS double majors)

8

Thanks all. I don’t think a move to a big state school would make sense at this point, as currently he has lots of access to all the professors in the department and they know him very well,as a student, grader, and TA. If he moved to a big school it would be difficult to get on their radar for research and recommendations.

I also think he may change his tune about the level of work once he gets into junior and senior year courses, if he ends up staying. @Bopper I agree that he could be a big fish in a small pond, and that may be what happens. He is banking on a rising tide of lots of superstars, lifting all boats. We shall see. He needs to get into a summer research position for the time being. It;s a good problem to have, and luckily he is interested in it. When I was his age, I spent my summers working in a boring office job for minimum wage. Didn’t know anyone who did any research! (And I went to the same college)

9

The same argument you just posed against large public universities would be equally true for privates. The avg number of jr and sr’s in a physics dept in the country is very small. http://www.aip.org/sites/default/files/statistics/rosters/physrost134.pdf

I agree with the contention he does not need to transfer and that relationships with professors and undergrad research can make up for what he feels is lacking. Many professors are more than willing to mentor a strong, motivated student.

10

There are a few LACs that are among the highest producers of PhD holders in Physics. http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/

11

#9 shows Phds only as a percentage of a school’s entire student body, not the actual # of PhDs that were earned. To my mind, “the highest producers of Phds” are the schools that produce the most PhDs. As an actual number. NOT as a percentage of every single body who happens to attend the same institution, irrespective of their major, ability, or field of interest.

I don’t have physics isolated out, but here is a listing of the actual highest producers of PhDs in science & engineering. No LAC is in the top 50 highest producers of science& engineering PhDs on this list.

Physics alone might look somewhat different but I don’t have that just now.

SOURCE: National Science Foundation, Division of Science Resources Statistics, Survey of Earned Doctorates.

TABLE 2. Top 50 U.S. baccalaureate-origin institutions of 2002–11 S&E doctorate recipients, by institutional control and 2010 Carnegie classification Rank Academic institution Institutional
control 2010 Carnegie
classification S&E doctorate
recipients

na All baccalaureate-origin institutions na na 319,075
na Foreign institutions na na 113,181
na Unknown institutions na na 26,528
1 U. CA, Berkeley Public Research-very high 3,406
2 Cornell U., all campuses Private Research-very high 2,646
3 U. MI, Ann Arbor Public Research-very high 2,205
4 U. IL, Urbana-Champaign Public Research-very high 1,976
5 PA State U., main campus Public Research-very high 1,934
6 U. WI, Madison Public Research-very high 1,881
7 MA Institute of Technology Private Research-very high 1,880
8 U. CA, Los Angeles Public Research-very high 1,873
9 Harvard U. Private Research-very high 1,794
10 U. TX, Austin Public Research-very high 1,787
11 U. FL Public Research-very high 1,730
12 Brigham Young U., main campus Private Research-high 1,688
13 U. CA, San Diego Public Research-very high 1,546
14 U. CA, Davis Public Research-very high 1,542
15 Stanford U. Private Research-very high 1,359
16 TX A&M U., main campus Public Research-very high 1,299
17 U. VA, main campus Public Research-very high 1,260
18 Rutgers, State U. NJ, New Brunswick Public Research-very high 1,256
18 U. WA, Seattle Public Research-very high 1,256
20 U. MD, College Park Public Research-very high 1,216
21 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State U. Public Research-very high 1,193
22 Brown U. Private Research-very high 1,188
23 OH State U., main campus Public Research-very high 1,178
24 U. MN, Twin Cities Public Research-very high 1,161
25 Princeton U. Private Research-very high 1,131
26 Duke U. Private Research-very high 1,103
27 Purdue U., main campus Public Research-very high 1,097
28 MI State U. Public Research-very high 1,092
28 U. AZ Public Research-very high 1,092
30 U. PA Private Research-very high 1,081
31 Yale U. Private Research-very high 1,020
32 U. NC, Chapel Hill Public Research-very high 991
33 U. CO, Boulder Public Research-very high 987
34 U. CA, Santa Barbara Public Research-very high 959
35 U. CA, Santa Cruz Public Research-very high 952
36 Northwestern U. Private Research-very high 949
37 U. of Chicago Private Research-very high 940
38 NC State U., Raleigh Public Research-very high 938
39 Boston U. Private Research-very high 913
40 GA Institute of Technology, main campus Public Research-very high 911
41 IA State U. Public Research-very high 863
42 Columbia U. in the City of New York Private Research-very high 829
43 Carnegie Mellon U. Private Research-very high 812
44 Johns Hopkins U. Private Research-very high 797
45 U. CA, Irvine Public Research-very high 787
46 IN U., Bloomington Public Research-very high 785
47 U. of Rochester Private Research-very high 771
48 AZ State U. Public Research-very high 744
49 CA Institute of Technology Private Research-very high 739
50 U. DE Public Research-very high 734

na = not applicable.

S&E = science and engineering; includes health fields.

NOTE: Institutions with the same number of doctorate recipients are listed alphabetically.

12

Still don’t have physics alone, but the same report shows the top ten PhD producers in “physical sciences”

1 U. CA, Berkeley Public Research-very high 740
2 MA Institute of Technology Private Research-very high 637
3 Harvard U. Private Research-very high 548
4 Cornell U., all campuses Private Research-very high 505
5 CA Institute of Technology Public Research-very high 404
6 U. MI, Ann Arbor Public Research-very high 368
7 Brigham Young U., main campus Private Research-high 335
8 PA State U., main campus Public Research-very high 331
9 U. TX, Austin Public Research-very high 328
10 U. IL, Urbana-Champaign Public Research-very high 324

13

Your son may thrive when surrounded by like minded peers instead of just being in contact with professors sharing his interests. Also- his selection of electives and ancillary classes may be better plus opportunities to work in research labs and see what grad students do. Somehow being a grader and TA as an undergrad does not seem like a good use of his time. How many grad level courses can he take as an undergrad? It isn’t just about the grades but being best prepared for grad school.

14

@Monydad – so if a college had 100 students, all of whom majored in physics and all of whom went on to get PhD’s in physics, they wouldn’t count on your list? I’d look at that school as an outstanding producer of future physics PhD’s, not an also-ran.

15

Since the OP did not mention which LAC it is, we can only guess whether it is one that is relatively strong in physics (e.g. Mudd, Reed, Oberlin) or one that is relatively weak in physics.

16

@ucbalumnus‌
The only thing that makes me wonder is that he is a TA and grader as a 2nd semester sophomore? (Guessing, but that is what I am gathering.) That makes me scratch my head about the quality of the program.

17

It may not be unusual to hire undergraduates as readers/graders for minor homework assignments or perhaps minor lab assistant duties. But, at least in physics, it seems more unusual for a sophomore to be a TA leading a discussion section or lab, or grading major exams. Also, if the school is supposedly a LAC, isn’t not using TAs one of the selling points of a LAC?

18

That is why I am confused. I could understand if the term TA meant grader. It was distinguishing between grader and TA which seems to imply a different level of responsibility.

OP, my son is only a college freshman, but he is actually on his 3rd university for his physics major since he started dual enrolling in physics classes in high school and we moved across the country his jr yr. He started taking his physics classes at a state’s largest public university where his first section had 250 students, but they had weekly recitation classes which were small groups. The recitation sections were taught by grad students. I believe his lab was also. His second universtiy was a smaller public that did not offer a grad degree in physics, only a bs, so that dept was small. Only professors teach in that dept. He was well-known in the dept and the professors were definitely fabulous mentors. Now he is technically in his freshman yr at his “destination” school (though he has jr standing.) Even though he didn’t take any lower level classes at this university, he has not had any problem finding excellent mentors and finding a professor who wants him to join his research.

He definitely sees pros and cons of the various settings. For him personally, while he loved the small dept here and the additional mentoring he received, he found the dept itself limiting. The lack of graduate level classes was a huge con. He is very happy with his choice for his destination school which will allow him to take grad level courses as an undergrad. (This was a requirement for him when he was investigating schools bc he only has 2 required undergrad physics classes left after this semester and he isn’t planning on graduating early.)

Fwiw, entering into the dept with all lower level classes completed means you automatically start in smaller size classes. That allows for making connections with professors almost immediately.

Good luck with your son’s decision. It is not a fun position to be in. I hope he is able to really sort through the pros and cons of each. His professors at his current school should be his first source of advice. They should help him be able to him evaluate his situation within the bigger picture of grad school. They have all been there.

19

What about fall semester (first semester of junior year), or even all of junior year, as a visiting student elsewhere, someplace that he believes is a viable transfer target, and then make a transfer decision on the basis of that experience?

20

Given the grades, I don’t expect it is Reed, ;), or Mudd either, for that matter.