gays @ ND

<p>Sigh....I am so tired of "buffet" Catholics. Those who think they can pick and choose the aspects of Catholicism they want to practice, and disregard the rest. You are either a Catholic or you are not!
Notre Dame is a CATHOLIC school. The overall feel is going to be CATHOLIC. COnversely, I live right near Brandeis, a well-respected school highly populated by jews. If I were to attend there, I would simply have to accept that the Jewish faith would permeate most, if not all, aspects of the college life there. Same thing with Notre Dame and Catholicism.</p>

<p>What?</p>

<p>It is impossible to be Catholic without disagreeing with some aspects of the religion?</p>

<p>I'm sorry, I don't normally make directed attacks, but claremarie, you are being ridiculous.</p>

<p>First of all, you say that "teachings on faith and morals will not change"....well, this has happened, and still does happen, and thank goodness it does. What recently happened to purgatory? The Catholic Church is constantly studying theology and Scripture and fine tuning its views...this does not mean that it will ever radically change, but it does mean that is has some faith flexibility.</p>

<p>And by the way, ManUtd20Ole makes a great point...do we as Americans agree with everything our govenment does simply because we're Americans? Of course not. The same is true with the Catholic Church. You are hard pressed to find many people who agree fully with ALL of the church's teachings. I think it's disturbing that some people identify participation with outright, blind following.</p>

<p>By the way, I myself am a freshman at ND and consider myself Agnostic. And you know what? I still attend mass, and best of all, I have conversations with my friends all the time about my beliefs and theirs. I think we all bring something to the table, and I certainly take offense to the insinuation that I don't have a place on this campus because I don't often participate in Catholic activities outside of school...I would hope I have something else to offer and am not a completely useless person strictly because I see things a little differently. And by the way, I absolutely love Notre Dame and the people there...wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same?</p>

<p>And could you possibly leave gay people alone? If you think it's so wrong, then don't enter into a homosexual relationship. Seems simple enough to me.</p>

<p>The Church does not have any teachings against homosexuality, just homosexual acts. No Catholic individual should be homophobic.</p>

<p>You're kind of splitting hairs there, PCB. There are very few homosexuals out there who aren't engaged in homosexual acts. When people "come out", they are defining themselves, by and large, by their sexuality, not their inclination.</p>

<p>Personally, I'm on board with Peter Pace, the general and joint chief of staff who has been skewered in the national press for stating his person view that homosexual behavior is immoral. </p>

<p>So is extramarital sex, premarital sex, and a whole range of sexual behaviors. Does this mean none of these things go on? Obviously not. Does this mean people should threaten or harass people who engage in these behaviors? No.</p>

<p>But wrong is wrong. Difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual is the former can exercise his or her sexuality in morally acceptable ways, while there are no moral ways in which the latter can.</p>

<p>Political correctness, in my estimation, has blurred the line between right and wrong. In its haste not to cast judgment, it has cast judgment in its own way, by portraying those who are willing to openly assert that there is such a thing as right and wrong, as somehow being immoral for doing so.</p>

<p>It's totally upside down!</p>

<p>I agree, Shellzie, that in this day and age, there aren't going to be many people of any age who are going to outright harass homosexual. I would imagine, though, that if you probe most people on the ND campus regarding their views on these moral issues, you're going to hear a much higher proportion of people who, like me, think homosexual behavior is immoral, than you would on another campus. </p>

<p>That, to me, is one of the greatest attributes of Notre Dame. In an era when public culture has eroded any sense of universal morality, ND does not fear to stand for something and embrace its Catholic identity. Lord knows, someone has to...</p>

<p>You are obviously an educated, intelligent person. Did it ever occur to you that the Catholic Church might be correct on this issue? Why do you think you're more intelligent and wise than 2000 years of Church history? I used to think that too.</p>

<p>Please open your bible and read the first two chapters of Genesis. Male and female God created them. God created our sexuality to be ordered toward the other sex, not the same sex. That's why the Church has forever taught that homosexual acts are objectively dis-ordered. I would suggest you read the Theology of the Body teachings of our late Holy Father, John Paul II. What you are lacking in your "liberal" outlook is an open mind.</p>

<p>Who'd have thunk that the Catholic Church has the goods on sex?</p>

<p>You know, I think I'll give Notre Dame admissions a call and find out exactly how they feel about some of these comments. Let's see if they would discourage an applicant JUST BECAUSE HE HAPPENS TO BE GAY. Geez.</p>

<p>AlDomerDad...</p>

<p>why don't you open Leviticus? It says that any individual who has ever cursed his parents shall be put to death...hmmm....maybe it's a good thing we don't take everything in the Bible literally? I only bring this up because Leviticus is almost ALWAYS the Book brought up to "prove" that homosexuality is wrong, but maybe it's not such a bad thing to be a "buffet Catholic" as someone as put it, because I'm pretty sure there would be NO ONE left on this planet if we took that particular passage literally. Just a thought.</p>

<p>And by the way, you are being extremely unfair toward CMA...nowhere has she made the claim that she is "more intelligent" than 2000 years of church history. And what I find extremely entertaining is your claim that her "liberal" outlook is preventing her from having an open mind. As far as I can see, you are the one pointing to a clipped section of an ancient book and using it to condemn thousands of people without even so much as a twitch. I think all that is being suggested is that we leave everybody ALONE and let them make their own decisions about their own lives. What difference does it make it to you what choices another makes, as long as it doesn't directly detract from your (or someone else's) civil right or liberties??</p>

<p>Just called Notre Dame Admissions office and spoke to an admission's officer. Wow, what a breath of fresh air, but frankly I am not surprised. I was told Gays are not shunned at Notre Dame, and are encouraged to apply just like every other applicant. In fact there are clubs that gay students can belong to, that although they aren't officially recognized by the university, some teachers even belong to. So, get with the program people. Open your hearts and during Lent, try to think of how Jesus would respond to this original poster.</p>

<p>I am personally amazed, CMA, that you are taken aback by the number of people on this forum that have quite simply stated the Catholic Church's moral view (which reflects that of many other religions, Christian and otherwise) that homosexual behavior is immoral. Geez....</p>

<p>What astounds me is the degree to which the moral structure of this country has degraded into a feel-good PC it's-okay-if-it-feels-okay swamp of moral relativism, almost entirely at the hands of a pervasive pop culture that holds the notion of Judeo-Christian values in contempt.</p>

<p>Homosexuality is immoral. Adultery is immoral. There is a right, and there is a wrong. </p>

<p>What are you going to do, CMA, call Notre Dame admissions and TELL ON US? Maybe, upon hearing the views I and others have espoused here, they'll call up my admitted daughter and tell her no thanks? Or maybe they'll yank my son? Or perhaps they'll come to my home in the dark of night and rip my diploma off the walls.</p>

<p>Homosexual behavior is immoral, as are all sorts of behavior that have been deemed acceptable today in a disturbing case of groupthink inspired not by any particular religious sect, but rather by a bunch of cultural elites who view others not as "enlightened" as they are as being woefully akin to the caveman.</p>

<p>I think I might call admissions and tell them I am proud to be part of a university, as a parent and alumni, that has the courage to stand up for its moral convictions, even when blasted by the secular establishment which fuels both academia and the popular culture machine out of Hollywood. </p>

<p>I doubt admissions would discourage an applicant just because he happened to be gay. If the conversation went any further, though; as to what is taught as official church teaching, I believe you'd find something entirely different. And, if the conversation evolved to the applicant not simply being homosexually inclined, but fully intending to act upon these inclinations--in addition to trying to advocate them openly and publicly on the campus, using campus facilities....you'd probably get a different story...</p>

<p>How twisted are things when we get the moral superiority treatment from folks who are speaking out against the quite public moral teachings of the Church?</p>

<p>Well ddjones, I don't know about you, but I would also find it odd if someone set up a table to advocate heterosexual inclinations. No one is suggesting that we paint Notre Dame's campus with "BE GAY" banners, just like there aren't currently any "BE STRAIGHT" ones...I think CMA just wanted this kid who started this thread to realize that his application is just as welcome as anyone else's...and I seriously doubt she would "tell on you", although I find it interesting that you felt inclined to write that long defense.</p>

<p>OK, I've tried to stay out of this thread because I figured it would get messy (and obviously I wasn't wrong about that). But I feel that people are making some pretty major assumptions that they aren't even trying to justify.</p>

<p>"There are very few homosexuals out there who aren't engaged in homosexual acts."</p>

<p>You just can't make that statement without backing it up with some stats, or at least some logic. Why would the fact that a person is interested in members of their own sex rather than the opposite cause them to pursue sexual relationships more often? And even if this is true, even if almost all homosexuals have sex more often than heterosexuals, what are you saying to the small percentage that don't? That the fact that they find themselves attracted to members of their own gender is immoral, and that they are somehow less because of that? You can't judge a person morally based on something he or she can't control.</p>

<p>"Why do you think you're more intelligent and wise than 2000 years of Church history?"</p>

<p>That statement (well, technically question) does not really add to your argument.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Please open your bible and read the first two chapters of Genesis. Male and female God created them. God created our sexuality to be ordered toward the other sex, not the same sex. That's why the Church has forever taught that homosexual acts are objectively dis-ordered."</p>

<p>The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral because God, in the Book of Genesis, says so? I don't think you mean to imply that, because I'm sure that the Church uses better logic than that to explain why it views homosexual acts as wrong (even if I myself don't agree with them). Basing logic on the bible is possibly the most counterproductive thing you can do for your argument.</p>

<p>"Homosexuality is immoral."</p>

<p>Again, you have to show why this is the case. I can say that heterosexuality is immoral, but this does not make it true. Plus, I contend that sexual orientation cannot be chosen by an individual. Therefore, even if it is somehow proven that homosexuality is bad in some way, one cannot judge people based on their being gay. They didn't choose to be that way.</p>

<p>"What astounds me is the degree to which the moral structure of this country has degraded into a feel-good PC it's-okay-if-it-feels-okay swamp of moral relativism, almost entirely at the hands of a pervasive pop culture that holds the notion of Judeo-Christian values in contempt."</p>

<p>Values change continuously. What you need to do is to explain exactly why the values that are replacing those held by the Catholic Church are wrong. For example, one value that you might agree is gaining a foothold is tolerance of consensual sexual activity outside of marriage, both gay and straight. You can't say that this is a bad value because the Catholic Church says so, because I'll go ahead and say that the legal structure of our country, which is tasked with finding the best set of laws to preserve order and promote happiness, has determined that such activity is fine. (Both your and my arguments would contain equally bad logic in that scenario.) And assuming we both value freedom, all other things being equal, the burden of proof is on you to explain why having sex before marriage would be bad--so bad in fact that one ought to sacrifice freedom to stop himself or herself from doing it. And so bad that institutions should take steps to limit such behavior. I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons (even if I don't agree with them); I'm saying that to post in this thread advocating such a viewpoint without giving them is not appropriate and is definitely not helping the original poster or your own argument.</p>

<p>"How twisted are things when we get the moral superiority treatment from folks who are speaking out against the quite public moral teachings of the Church?"</p>

<p>Lots of stuff the church advocates would be rejected by the average American, even if he or she were Catholic. Stem-cell research is the obvious example of that. Tolerance of homosexuals and homosexuality in general is another good example. The fact that people are questioning the Catholic Church is not twisted; it's quite healthy for society and for individuals. </p>

<p>And anyone who disagrees with you on issues of morality is necessarily asserting "moral superiority". If what you mean by that is that lots of people are being condescending toward those with opposing viewpoints, well, I'm really only seeing that from people on your side of the argument.</p>

<p>Anyway, up until now I've been ambiguous about my own viewpoint, and normally I would continue to be until the other side started making valid points. But in this case I want to reassure the original poster that there are people at Notre Dame (including myself) who do not view homosexuality as wrong, who do not even view sexual activity outside of marriage as necessarily wrong, and who do not buy into all the things that the Catholic Church teaches as incontrovertible facts. As far as I'm concerned, if two people have consensual sex, and are being totally honest with themselves and each other about why they are doing so, and are taking the appropriate steps to prevent pregnancy and disease, then they are doing nothing wrong. Whether or not they are married or are of the same gender has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of their actions. And anyone who wishes to limit their freedom to do so, whether through legal means or just verbal persuasion, should instead reexamine their own viewpoint and realize that if the couple's actions hurt no one, not themselves and not anyone around them, then they are NOT immoral.</p>

<p>In response to the original poster's questions, Notre Dame probably is not as accepting as other schools would be, simply because it contains a vocal minority of students and an adminstration who preach the exact viewpoints that many people in this thread are expressing. Namely, they believe that homosexuality is wrong. Why? Because God and the Catholic Church say so. Because it is not in line with what God "expects" of us (not everyone would use these purely religious arguments, but most would). But the (only occasionally vocal) majority of students hold a much more progressive viewpoint regarding sexual relationships, completely in line with what I have outlined above. I hope this helps with your decision.</p>

<p>Bluebloodliberal, my "defense" was sarcasm...</p>

<p>The bottom line in this discussion is pretty simple in my estimation. Homosexuality is morally wrong by any definition the Catholic Church puts forth.</p>

<p>Nameless, I simply don't have the time to keep going at it in this debate, not because anyone has made any points to convince me otherwise, but because (a) I have no doubt those who think homosexuality is a morally acceptable lifestyle will not change their minds on the basis of an Internet forum and (b) I have better things to do.</p>

<p>As per this notion that the church somehow evolves and gets enlightened--by logical extension implying that it is only a matter of time before the Church gets enlightened about homosexuality, I don't buy it for a minute.</p>

<p>There is such a thing as right and wrong, and homosexual behavior is wrong.</p>

<p>You liberals are astounding in your arrogance!</p>

<p>ddjones007, the bottom line is that according to the admission's office of Notre Dame, they welcome all students, including gays to apply. Furthermore, it was pointed out to me by admissions that there are clubs that gays on campus are specifically affliated with, including teachers. You don't run the school. This thread became about more than Notre Dame.</p>

<p>Nameless, you are right no. Thank you.</p>

<p>ddjones, arrogance is certainly a choice word. No one has said that you don't have the right to think whatever you want about homosexuality...quite frankly, most of us don't care. All that we're asking is that maybe you could back off and let other people live their own lives...especially people who have enough on their plates when it comes to college decisions. I can only hope that the original poster, and others who read this thread, don't believe that some of these comments are typical of Notre Dame today, because they're not. One thing that I have come to find about the Catholic church is that it preaches tolerance, and despite the fact that some people make choices other than those you would make, maybe you could learn to still see them as people and just let them go on their way.</p>

<p>Amen! Also, Bluebloodedliberal, have a great St. Patrick's Day at Notre Dame this weekend.</p>

<p>O wow this has gotten messy</p>

<p>I have my own views on this topic, but I dont think an Internet forum is a proper place to debate such a topic...</p>

<p>Many homosexuals claim that they did not choose to become gay.... that it just happened. I am not gay, so I dont know the truth to that...........................but I would be interested in seeing some data on that</p>

<p>I know that I personally have many faults so I dont find it appropriate to call someone else out for their choice of who they are sexually attracted to or not.</p>

<p>I personally would never treat a homosexual any different than a straight person. I wonder if you asked 100 gay people if they wanted to be gay... how many would respond yes. I would almost guarantee that there would be more no's then yes's</p>

<p>Even though in the bible God says that homosexuality is wrong, he also tells us to love our neighbors and enemies alike. Therefore theres no place for ridicule and judgment for people who are attracted to their own sex</p>

<p>ddjones007, I understand that you don't have the time or will to continue this debate. Heck, the only reason I do have the time is that I'm on spring break right now, hanging out at home with nothing in particular to do. But I still think you at least owe us a general reason as to why you think homosexuality is wrong. The only things you've said are "Homosexual behavior is immoral--this has been the position of the Catholic Church for all of time" and "Homosexuality is morally wrong by any definition the Catholic Church puts forth", which seem to imply that you believe it is wrong simply because the Church thinks it is wrong. I really don't think you would base your viewpoint entirely on the Church's statement of its immorality (at least I would hope not), and I'm genuinely curious as to why you think it is wrong. I know nothing I can say would make you adopt my viewpoint, and probably vise versa as well, but I still would like to at least hear and hopefully understand your logic in this case. I am honestly completely ignorant of your reasoning, and would like for this not to be the case. </p>

<p>Also, I don't understand why you think everyone who believes in tolerance for homosexuality is a "liberal" and necessarily "arrogant". I would consider myself a moderate, since I am generally socially liberal and fiscally conservative. And believe it or not, gay people who would identify as conservatives exist (I've met one here at ND; Dick Cheney's daughter would be another example). And I honestly don't see very much arrogance in this thread, especially by the people who are encouraging tolerance of alternative lifestyles.</p>

<p>wow this thread sure got intense quite quickly. anyways; to all those out there who are concerned, i am aware that homosexuality would not truly affect my admissions chances at any respected american university that i would sincerely care to attend. </p>

<p>i would like to further nameless's inquisition towards ddjones007 :not only do i wonder why you think homosexuality is wrong; but why do you interpret the Bible's word so literally? if you lived your life & preached the word of the Bible so fervently, you would know that the book says it is immoral to swear at your parents, it is necessary for women to wear scarves around their hair, it is immoral to consume alcohol at all also. it is so interesting to me that people continue to preach about the immorality of homosexuality based on the Bible, yet they evade these points at the same time. it truly is the biggest paradox in our society today. the churhc promotes accpetance and tolerance and diversity yet salmes the door in its face when it comes-a-knockin'. </p>

<p>im not here to be a promoter of homosexuality; just as im sure everyone here is not intending to solicit their view, just express it. i am not taking a defensive position, but a curious one. i truly do not comprehend your reasoning ddjones007 and am flustered as to how you conclude the reasonings which you have already. feel free to ask away anyone; about homosexuality,anything. id rather help and explain than get defensive and argue. thanks.</p>

<p>No poster here can defend the Church's position adequately. The Church does not simply point to the Bible for justification. The logic is really quite elegant. I would strongly suggest that find a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. With my previous response, I split hairs no more so than the Church does. The Church sees homosexuals as individuals to be loved and embraced as any of God's children would be.</p>