<p>And hey, by the way, while I do not run the university, there is a president and board of trustees who do. They are the reason why those clubs for gay students mentioned by a poster here are neither sanctioned by the university, nor allowed to use university facilities for official events of their club... </p>
<p>I don't have to defend the Church's view. It is what it is.</p>
<p>Homosexual behavior is immoral, which is why ND, unlike many other universities, will not sanction homosexual clubs on campus...</p>
<p>The immoral does not become the moral just because there are more people openly engaged in the behavior. It is not a matter of enlightenment, but a matter of a culture grown increasingly permissive...</p>
<p>Thank God the Catholic Church as an institution is not about to bend its standards just to please the masses...</p>
<p>All these biblical experts are ignoring that FACT that this poster is interested in possibly attending Notre Dame and the admissions office encourages his application AND there are clubs at campus that even teachers belong to that specifically are for gays. All your opinions don't mean a thing. What I find really annoying are Christians acting like they are following the teachings of Jesus Christ. Come on! Do you really really think Jesus to speak like a you? NO WAY! I am sure that the "Church" is against prostitution, but Jesus welcomed prostitutes, criminals, everyone into his family.</p>
<p>I also suggested y'all who pooh pooh the Catholic Church's position on this issue, (or any issue of sexual morals) to get into JP2's Theology of the Body teachings.</p>
<p>There are many sexual disorders, only one of which is homosexual behavior. Same-sex attraction is a form of lust, which is a sexual disorder, in which evil has twisted and corrupted good and right sexual attraction. I find that I must fight lust, whether it be directed toward my wife or toward other women. I would assert that most people, if not all, have some sexual moral disorder which they must turn over to the crucified Christ to truly receive freedom from it.</p>
<p>Back on point, it seems to me that while ND and the Church will not condemn same-sex-attracted students (of course, neither will not tolerate homosexual acts), if one is seeking open acceptance and an embrace of that "lifestyle" then there are better choices among the elite universities.</p>
<p>Jesus hung out with sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, etc. I am sure that if Jesus were here he would be hanging out with the same, including same-sex attracted people and all sorts of sinners. We are ALL sinners in need of redemption. But Jesus was not one to tolerate the sin. You want to point to his words "if none of them condemns you, then neither do I" but you want to forget about the next words "now go and sin no more." </p>
<p>I am not casting stones at anyone because I have my share of sin. But that does not mean that I, or the Church, should stop calling a spade a spade (or a sin a sin for that matter).</p>
<p>Jesus came to call all of us to a change of heart, to fulfill the law by writing the law on our hearts. He wants us to love Him so much that we wouldn't THINK of doing anything that is displeasing to Him. He did not call us to tolerate sin, he called us to turn away from it. THAT is the message of lent, that is what I'm trying to do this lent, to have Christ shed light on all the areas in my life where I sin, where I am not pleasing to Him.</p>
<p>Since none of you speak for Notre Dame, and the admissions office has no problem with gay applicants, maybe you should stop posting. Let this high school student leave this thread with the understanding that he can visit all the schools and speak directly to the admission offices, instead of being influenced by any of us.</p>
<p>Just out of curiousity, I wonder where a lot of these posters would place the premarital sex issue. AlDomerDad, you say that ND won't tolerate homosexual activity, but it is pretty much the same with heterosexual activity. duLac is pretty clear on this point...no sex before marriage, PERIOD. Well, as a student on campus, I'm here to tell you that it DOES happen. I don't see how someone who chooses to pursue homosexual relationships as opposed to heterosexual ones should be any different in duLac's eyes...both are bound by the same set of rules that we agree to when we fill out our housing contract.</p>
<p>And CMA has a good point...this kid will only ever find out the answers for himself when he visits the schools he's interested in...best of luck in his college search!</p>
<p>(and thanks for the St. Patty's Day Wishes! Best to you as well!!)</p>
<p>"Since when did calling a behavior immoral become hate?"</p>
<p>Well, considering the first appearance of the word "hate" in this thread was in that sentence (and I also didn't even find anyone implying such a statement), I think it's safe to assume that equating the thought that homosexuality is immoral with hate did not originate among anyone here.</p>
<p>Ugh, this thread has gotten a bit out of hand. I wanted to clarify a couple points though. Someone mentioned that ND doesn't have any homosexual clubs. This is wrong. Notre Dame has a couple university-sponsored groups which offer a support network for homosexual individuals. The difference is, of course, that they cannot openly support homosexual behavior. There is also a non-university-sanctioned that I know of which focuses more on political activism. Again, there is no equivalent to some of the groups on other campuses I've heard of which throw drag balls and set up hedonistic festivals that celebrate homosexual behavior, but Notre Dame doesn't have that for straight people either. Which, after hearing about some of the stuff that goes on at other colleges, is something I am thankful for. As bluebloodliberal pointed out, a lot of ND's attitudes toward homosexual behavior are a reflection of its policies on ALL extra-marital sexual behavior. The administration tells us to just say no, but that doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen. The university won't discriminate against anyone, but it does expect more from its students than most colleges do, which is something that everyone should take into consideration before applying to Notre Dame.</p>
<p>In the eyes of the Church, sinful behavior with someone of your own sex is no more wrong than sinful behavior with someone of the opposite sex. Both are "disordered" behavior that we are called to repent from and turn away from. There are lots of other sinful sexual behaviors as well - contraception, masturbation, lust - all of which contradict the nature of sexuality as God created us, which is as a sign of the life-giving union of the Trinity, as well as a foretaste of the wedding feast of the Lamb.</p>
<p>Notre Dame, I think, has a consistent approach - premarital sex is wrong and we won't condone it.</p>
<p>And Duh! of course it happens. That doesn't make it right.</p>
<p>ND probably more accepting of gays...aslong as you don't march down that campus flaunting it..than CalBerkeley is of conservatives. I know I was there and Cal is only open minded about those who think like them. So, please don't give me this bs about how disappointed you are about ND...just look at the iv league schools, and other top 'liberal schools' and see how they treat moderate to conservative students.</p>
<p>Impressive, caliboi... You've truly added to the depth of the debate. One can only hope Notre Dame sees fit to admit you and your flourishing rhetorical style into its classrooms.</p>
<p>Or, should I say...NOT!</p>
<p>I tremble in my boots at your intimidation tactics, cb... How can we even continue the debate after having been so chastised with your words of wisdom?</p>
<p>I graduated from Notre Dame's law school in the late '80s. The school was very good to my family and me (we had two children when we were there) and I have nothing but fond memories of and respect for the place. My oldest daughter was accepted to the undergraduate school a few years ago but, after giving it a lot of thought, decided that it made more sense for her to attend our state university and graduate debt-free rather than go to ND and take out loans. Since then our financial situation has improved to the point where we can now afford to send our younger children to private colleges without anyone having to borrow money. </p>
<p>Now, however, we're in the opposite position. None of our younger children will even consider Notre Dame, largely because of its reputation for being unwelcoming towards gays and lesbians. And, as much as I would like to have one of my kids attend the university, I cannot quibble with their reasoning if the reasons are true.</p>
<p>Reading this thread gives me hope that my kids might be wrong. I commend the ND (and other) students on this thread for being so honest, thoughtful, and non-judgmental in addressing the issue of gays and lesbians at the university. I wish I could say the same about the adult posters, who more interested in highjacking this thread to lecture others on the righteousness of their personal religious views than answer the original poster's question.</p>
<p>There's been a lot of biblical quotes thrown around on this thread. One that's been left out is "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I suggest the adults on this board give this one a try.</p>
<p>This is mainly a response to parent but I am going to try to make it broad enough to encompass my argument for this thread. I have really tried not to enter this thread, but there are a few things that I want to bring up. I think most of us can agree on the Catholic Church's position on homosexuality. The Church's position is that there is nothing indecent about someone with homosexual tendencies, but acting upon those tendencies is sinful. We must not only be tolerant of homosexuals but in fact support them however we can. As Catholics, we cannot, however, support homosexual activity and call ourselves Catholic. Condemning homosexual activity is not in my mind being closed-minded nor is it being intolerant as you can still support homosexuals, rather it is being in communion with the Church.</p>
<p>I believe that Notre Dame, in its actions, is in perfect communion with the Church on this one. There are ministries through campus ministry as well as support groups present to help those among us who are homosexual. However, Notre Dame refuses to endorse a group which endorses the behavior. Looking at this, I believe these actions are in perfect communion with the Church. Notre Dame is not condemning those who are gay but rather are trying to support them as much as possible, yet still be faithful to the Catholic Church.</p>
<p>Now to those who disagree with the Church's position on this issue, or many other issues. I ask you to think about why you call yourself Catholic. I mean no disrespect by this at all, but just think about it. If you are not in communion with the Church, and her beliefs do not match yours, why align yourself with the Church? You could call yourself Christian or many other things and be much truer to your actual faith. It has just become a pet peeve of mine of late when I hear people say that they are an Orthodox Catholic or a Liberal Catholic. These are made up terms. There are those who are Catholic, and those who are not, and those who are Catholic are in communion with the Church's beliefs. I am not passing judgment on either side, just rather asking people to be honest about their faith.</p>
<p>parent2009, I contacted ND admissions to discuss this issue, and they said that they welcome all applicants, including homosexuals. I applaud your children for being compassionate to others.<br>
Irish and all, the original poster isn't here to debate the beliefs of the Catholic faith. Yes, ND is a Catholic university, and a great one at that. However, as has been pointed out previously, the Church considers premarital sex sinful, but that isn't stopping many (don't know the number) students from engaging in premarital sex at ND. Do I personally condone it, that isn't the issue. The poster didn't ask if students and administration would be talking about whether he was having sex or not, but whether being a homosexual at ND was a problem. Let's all have a Happy Easter and relax.</p>
<p>CMA, you assume the school isn't stopping premarital sex, but it is doing all that it can. People break rules and don't get caught, this is life, but if they do get caught then there are consequences. What it sounds like you are arguing is that they are enforcing some of the Catholic teachings and not others and that is simply not the case. I think the discussion on Catholic beliefs is appropriate as well because it helps show how ND's actions are in accordance with the beliefs of the Catholic Church.</p>
<p>As for the original question, which I answered a long time ago in the early days of this thread, :) no, I do not believe it is a problem being a homosexual on campus. People overall are very tolerant and understanding of homosexuals I have found. Yet, the University will not and can not endorse a group which promotes homosexual activity just like the University will not and can not endorse a group which encourages premarital sex.</p>
<p>With all due respect, of course Irish is judging. He's telling others that their way of being Catholic isn't "honest" if it's different from his way. A truly non-judgmental person practices his religion as he sees fit and respects the right of others to do the same. </p>
<p>And no one on the board is talking about "encouraging" or "promoting" homosexual activity any more than pro-choice Catholics are "promoting" abortion.</p>
<p>Finally, CMA, I appreciate the kind words but I don't think it's accurate to describe my kids as "compassionate." "Compassionate" implies that gays and lesbians, like other minorities, are people who we should feel sorry for. "Accepting" is the better word to describe my kids' way of thinking.</p>