General takes swipe at McCain

<p>Let me begin by saying I don't have a dog in this fight. (Couldn't care which one is the next President becuase I believe they will both be bad for America). </p>

<p>That said having had the less then enjoyable experience of serving during Gen Clarks Tenure in Europe I found him to be a horrible leader. He was known for destroying careers and not in a good way. It is my firm belief that had Scott O'Grady's fate been in the hands of Clark he would be dead today. Thankfully he hadn't been made Supreme Allied Commander yet and was only the chief negotiator in the Balkans.</p>

<p>While I wont vote for McCain or Obama for that matter. I would much rather be in a foxhole, cockpit, or prison cell with him then Clark anyday of the week. </p>

<p>" Gen. Wesley Clark, acting as a surrogate for Barack Obama’s campaign, invoked John McCain’s military service against him in one of the more personal attacks on the Republican presidential nominee this election cycle. </p>

<p>Clark said that McCain lacked the executive experience necessary to be president, calling him “untested and untried” on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” And in saying so, he took a few swipes at McCain’s military service. </p>

<p>“He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded — that wasn't a wartime squadron,” Clark said. </p>

<p>“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.” </p>

<p>From a rueter news story</p>

<p>ds - I saw this article earlier on yahoo, and I was struck w/ the thought - If Clark thinks that McCain is "untested and untried" since the squadron he commanded wasn't "wartime" - what does that say about Obama??</p>

<p>Clark says McCain hasn't held executive responsibility - well, what does he say about Obama?</p>

<p>With friends like Clark, Obama doesn't need enemies. </p>

<p>Worst surrogate ever.</p>

<p>"I would much rather be in a foxhole, cockpit, or prison cell with him then Clark anyday of the week." </p>

<p>Sounds like there may be some with first hand experience who may disagree with you:</p>

<p>General Clark's Vietnam service:</p>

<p>"Clark was assigned a position in the 1st Infantry Division and flew to Vietnam on May 21, 1969 during the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. He worked as a staff officer, collecting data and helping in operations planning, and was awarded the Bronze Star for his work with the staff. Clark was then given command of A Company, 1st Battalion, 16th Infantry of the 1st Infantry Division in January 1970. In February, only one month into his command, he was shot four times by a Viet Cong soldier with an AK-47. The wounded Clark shouted orders to his men, who counterattacked and defeated the Viet Cong force. Clark had injuries to his right shoulder, right hand, right hip, and right leg, and was sent to Valley Forge Army Hospital in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania to recuperate. He was awarded the Silver Star for his actions during the encounter."[20]</p>

<p><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Silver_Star_Citation.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Silver_Star_Citation.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think we can avoid "swift-boating" both Gen. Clark and Senator McCain on this board.</p>

<p>Frankly, either Obama or McCain would be a giant step forward for this country. Some of our best Presidents have had no military service, as well as some of our worst. Some of our worst Presidents have had oodles of military experience, as have some of our best Presidents. Too much is being made of this issue. Politics as usual.</p>

<p>I can only speak from experience serving under his command in europe. Clark would throw his mother under a bus if it meant he would gain something. Again I don't care who the next President is Clark showed his character today when he took the shots at McCain. I don't personally think he should be President, but for a former General to assualt a former POW that way is shamefull.</p>

<p>When he was offered the opportunity to leave captivity he stayed. Would Clark do that I doubt it, and there is still a question regarding Clark and the Roasting of the Branch Davidians. Not a group I have a lot of support for, but they certainly didn't deserve to be roasted.</p>

<p>I doubt there are too many career officers who have achieved the rank of 4 star general that haven't stepped on more than a few toes along the way. Both men behaved heroically when their time came. Neither act of heroism means someone is more or less qualified to be President. Plenty of troops, marines, airmen, and sailors were imprisoned by the enemy and conducted themselves with the utmost courage, jsut as plenty of young men and women have demonstrated gallentry under fire and been awarded citations and medals for their actions. Their courage and devotion to duty speaks for itself.</p>

<p>I think Clark made a mistake making that comment about McCain, just as I think that the fact that Obama didn't serve in the military is hardly a litmus test for leading a nation out of the economic and international mess we are in now. It's all politics and I sense the American people have had enough of it. Neither political party is serving the nation well.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Clark would throw his mother under a bus if it meant he would gain something.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I remember living in the Beltway when he did his run in 04, and many military members calling talk radio, having the same belief...his respect from the military members while he was in service is very low...had Powell said these comments, there would be more traction</p>

<p>Lets be clear I did my 21 including some under him. I am sitting here looking at the box that holds some of the Medals I was awarded during that career. They are medals, while I am proud of them they do not define my character. They make me nothing next to the guy standing beside me. I am telling you as someone who served as his subordinate I respected the rank, but will never respect the man.</p>

<p>I would respect any man or woman with his service record. Just as I respect John McCain's. Everything else these days is just politics. The efforts of the far left and the neo-conservatives to craft some kind of argument that ignores the record in favor of spurious and non-specific rhetoric in order to discredit retired officers because of their politics, who choose to serve the nation after their military service, is shameful.</p>

<p>Shogun Gen Clark chose his words on Face the Nation. He did so as an attack on a former POW and Senior Naval Officer. I am telling you his medals and service record are built on the broken bones and backs of other servicemen. I served under him, and again I'll respect the rank but not the man. This isn't Neon-Con or Far left Liberal crafting. It just is a shameless act by a shameless man.</p>

<p>I just think it's being blown out of proportion. I think he made a mistake saying what he did, but his comments were a valid part of the discussion. McCain has made his service a campaign issue all by himself. When he did so, said issue is going to be held up to scrutiny and is going to be exposed to comment. If candidate A is going to say that experience B makes him a better choice for president, is it a shameful act to ask whether that experience really does so? I saw worse treatment of John Kerry's record in 2004 than this statement today.<br>
Again, it was insensitive for him to say it that way, but the discussion is valid.</p>

<p>Obviously you had a conflict with Gen. Clark at one time and I will respect that, and the opinion you have of him because of that experience.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Again, an interesting accusation. I would ask you to provide facts except I feel that you do not have the right to question properly awarded medals. They were awarded by his chain of command under guidelines prevalent at the time of the award. Just for the record, his most senior medal was awarded in Vietnam when, under a Vietcong ambush , after receiving several serious injuries himself, he continued to guide his company in defeating the enemy and leading his troops to safety. I certainly cannot imagine your having a problem with this. Also, should your accusations be correct, would it not be the fault of the Army promotion system rather than someone taking advantage of it to be allowed to be improperly promoted. </p>

<p>There is a saying in the Army that the three worst things that can happen to one as an officer is to be a Rhodes Scholar, win the Heisman Trophy, or earn the Medal of Honor. All three breed jealousy by other not-quite-so-stellar officers. Many feel that this jealousy was the base of much of the criticism of Gen Clark.</p>

<p>Also, for those criticizing his actions while SACEUR, perhaps the fact that he was operating in a virtual vacuum in relation to the lack of a White House foreign policy, essentially being forced to establish his own policy, led to more criticizm than a typical military officer should be forced to endure. </p>

<p>Now that I have had my say, I do not feel that a service academy forum is the proper place to discuss political issues involving issues concerning service to one's country.</p>

<p>Good job by shogun and in this case I agree with usna69.</p>

<p>Let's face it, on whose watch did we "win" our last war-Wes Clark's.</p>

<p>He is a hero in his own right; we throw that term around helter-skelter here.</p>

<p>What former general isn't a bit self-aggrandizing? Or have a big ego? You don't get four stars on your shoulder being a shrinking violet.</p>

<p>End of soap box.</p>

<p>What is most disappointing about the entire dialog on this issue (not here on this board but in the media and amongst the "pundits") is that no one is actually addressing the merits of what Gen. Clark actually said:</p>

<p>“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”</p>

<p>Is that statement un-true? If it is "un-true" what is the argument to support the notion that this particular experience IS a qualification to become President? Was Adm Stocksdale, a war hero of the FIRST DEGREE, qualified to be VP in 1992, because of this same experience? </p>

<p>Instead of addressing questions like this logically and with a little thought behind it, the critics are accusing him of "smearing" McCain's war record and the Obama supporters have gone into "apolgetic" and "distancing mode". It appears there is no room in politics for an intellectual discussion about the merits of what is said. Instead it's all about how we 'feel". This is how the electorate gets duped.</p>

<p>Gen Clark should not have made that statement--not because it was untrue (or true), but because it would never be discussed in terms of its truth or un-truth--it would just generate more political babble serving to confuse an already less than informed electorate.</p>

<p>
[quote]
He is a hero, you can't touch him

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Great advice to anyone who attempts to dispare military service and the medals earned therein. </p>

<p>Clift:</a> Clark?s 3 Mistakes on McCain?s War Service | Newsweek Voices - Eleanor Clift | Newsweek.com</p>

<p>General Clark is a Politician and has been since before he retired. He chose his words and they have meaning. As for the Obama camp backing off in appologetic mode, IMHO that is just not the case.</p>

<p>I believed that this Cartoon (link below) sums this whole Gen Clark quote nicely. I don't believe Sen McCain has ever made the claim that being a POW was the sole reason to vote for him. He does have a 26 year record that you can debate on top of his 25 years in uniform. On the other hand- If I were Barack Obama I would be fleeing any mention of the concept of job qualification based on experience as he has zero (as the cartoon points out - a speech and 3 years in the Senate with nada to show for it is the sum total of his career). Gen Clark is a politician - and not very good at it- one can only wonder why he stepped into this pile of dung and then why he did so again as clearly it's not an approach that Obama will benefit from. In the Army Clark was the consumate uniformed politician and as someone else pointed out- long before he got to be CINCEUR was known for throwing his subordinates and peers under the bus if it advanced his own career. </p>

<p>BTW - since we just celebrated the 232d anniversary of the Dec of Independence, it might be useful to recall that the singers of the Declaration of Independence : " pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor" to the country. Only one of the two candidates running can make the claim that they too pledged their life to the country in a way that means something- pledging your life when you are getting shot at as opposed to when there is no danger involved are pretty different concepts. Further- the concept of personal honor means something when faced with threats to life and limb if you don't sell out your compatriots. So perhaps service-while not the only qualifying factor- might be a pretty good discriminator at that, and perhaps a better one than promises with no cost and no record to back them up. </p>

<p>Editorial</a> Cartoons by Nate Beeler - General Foolishness - Examiner.com</p>

<p>Unfortunately, our nations military heros have not always made our better presidents---Grant comes to mind for one. I can think of several excellent military leaders you wouldn't want near the White House--Patton, MacArthur, Pershing, etc etc. It is not a singular qualification that makes one candidate better than another. Service to the nation can come in many forms and our founders recognized that or they would have made military service a prerequisite. FDR had no military experience and became one of our best Presidents, same with Reagan. McCain, as much as I love the guy (and voted for him in the 2000 and 2008 primaries), has made his record of service part of his campaign and has therefor opened it's relevance to being President up to debate.</p>

<p>Again, no one is answering the question at hand--is what Gen Clark said untrue?</p>

<p>Shogun, </p>

<p>I think Clarks comments struck a nerve in different people for many different reasons. </p>

<p>His statement of the obvious or "true"; McCain was shot down and that should not be considered as feather in his cap of "presidential qualifications" is not a statement worthy of additional discussion. Clark has not been assailed for stating what anyone with half a brain understands. </p>

<p>I can only characterize his statement of the obvious as just plain stupid, causing him to come across as this pathetic individual seeking to engender goodwill and perhaps a VP slot from Obama. Consider how many compelling issues that the candidates differ on, issues and positions you could point to as you make a case for the candidate you support. Why would you go down the path of trying to diminish the military service of McCain when the candidate you support has none? </p>

<p>If Clark had limited his commentary, observations and opinions to what he believed to be defects in Senator McCains approach to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, military spending, the recent vote on the expansion of the GI...etc. I'm sure he could framed his case in such a way that the majority of us would have appreciated, whether we agreed with all of his observations or not. He could have used his credibility on Military and Foreign affairs in positive terms instead of loosing his entire message taking what many people felt was a cheap and rather disingenuous shot at McCain. </p>

<p>I also think it’s insulting and patronizing for people from either party to sit on some talk show and try and tell me who is fit to be President. I get to decide who is fit, through a process called voting. If a majority of Americans agree with me, the man or woman we say is fit gets to be President and we get to find out whether or not we were right.</p>

<p>Many people complain about the choices we’ve had for President. I have to say I’m one of them. And yet having spent some time in politics, I can no longer fathom how anyone would subject themselves, their spouse, and their family to the insanity of what politics has become. The are no subjects off limits, no aspect of your life that won’t show up on the front page of the national press or become the lead story on the evening news. If you can't win the debate, destroy the candidate, if you can't touch the candidate take a shot at their wives, children, pets, hobbies..... </p>

<p>I occasionally make the mistake of reading some blogs and posts about this election. I am almost always blown away by the vicious commentary where individuals seeks to belittle or dismiss out of hand a life’s work and the meaningful contributions of an individual just because they are the “opposition candidate”. Nasty doesn't even begin to describe some of the venomous diatribes I've read. </p>

<p>Some people seem to feel it’s just part of the process, “if you can’t stand the heat” or something else I just read that I’ve never heard before “ they better put on their big boy pants”. </p>

<p>The democratic process is by design, a confrontational one. Unfortunately the process by which we elect our representation in congress and our Presidents has become one in which individual humiliation and the destruction and diminishment of the opposition is now a fundamental part of most campaign play books. </p>

<p>And what happens after the election? After one side wins are they supposed to kiss and make up and work cooperatively to advance our national interests…. </p>

<p>When the cost of winning an election is so high, in both economic and personal terms, what kind of candidate would run? Maybe we should stop complaining about the quality of candidates given what we’ve allowed the process to become. It could be we just get the kind and quality of candidates we deserve.</p>

<p>rjrzoom--thanks for those comments. I think there is much merit in what you said. I have given a lot of thought to my vote in Novemeber and am still very much undecided. For all my life I have voted according to which candidate agrees with ME the most. Which candidate shares MY values, beliefs, economic outlook, etc etc. Perhaps this year my vote should be based more along the lines of which candidate will be best for other people of this country, not necessarily which one will be best for ME. Sounds strange but perhaps my vote needs to go to the candidate which will best represent the segments of our citizenry who have not been so well represented in the past. Who will that be? I honestly don't know yet. I do know that not much has been said this year about the level of poverty in this nation which is still embarassing high given our relative wealth in the world, or about drugs, or crime in general.
A lot for us all to think about, no matter who we vote for.</p>

<p>Anyone who's wearing four stars is heavily involved with politics, even if they aren't "active participants". I may be partial to Naval Academy alumni, but Wesley Clark is legit people. Whether Clark is in the White House as VP, or whether McCain is the President, I think we'd be well served with either of them. </p>

<p>Gen. Clark brings "experience" for the Obama campaign, and in the eyes of many Americans, would displace McCain's seemingly only advantage over Obama in the realm of military experience.</p>

<p>I'm a huge Wesley Clark fan, especially examining his career before he was a general, or even before he was an officer for that matter. Valedictorian at West Point and a Rhodes Scholar. He might be the most accomplished individual we've ever seen in the White House if he gets in. Is there any midshipman or cadet who doesn't admire what Clark was able to accomplish?</p>

<p>I think we all need to remember that Clark isn't in the military anymore, he is in fact a politician with an agenda. This is not the first time high profile military personel have been held back from the White House. People in the Senate were scared that Gen. MacArthur was going to be the next President, so the Truman administration quickly disposed of him on the eve of the election. Hopefully, we're not seeing a repeat performance between Clark and McCain because I'd much rather see one of them in there than niether.</p>