Is Law School worth it? Chance me

Graduate School Law School
1

Hey everyone,

I just graduated from UCLA. I’m 19-years-old, turning 20. I’m thinking of going to law school, but I’m not completely sure. The idea of law school sounds appealing, but I don’t want to be an attorney. In reality, I want to get into investment banking, but I’m not sure I could get into a good MBA program (also, I don’t know if I want to take time off work later in my life). Would law school help me in this?

I attended a CA community college for a year, and got a 4.0 there. Then I transferred to UCLA as a poli sci major, and graduated within a year there too. My UCLA GPA is 3.95 (I’m summa cum laude, and graduated within the Honors College). Overall, my law school GPA is a 4.00. I’m middle eastern, low income ($6,000), and an international student with US citizenship (my family just moved back to Israel from California). Some quarters, I took six or more classes so I could gradate early.

I’m moving to Israel for a year to study at a Yeshiva (studying Judaism, and Jewish law, and business ethics). It’s a small program of 25. Most individuals are HYPSM grads in their mid-twenties, doing investments. The instructors are past JP Morgan execs, top consultants, etc. The person paying my tuition is a philanthropist who is a CEO of a capital investment firm. Ideally, I want to get into similar work (or comedy writing…I’m starting to sound very stereotypically Jewish, lol). I might defer law school two years for mandatory military service, but I might try to get out of it, too. I’m not sure yet, it’s really 50/50.

I’ve taken a few LSAT practice exams, without really studying (although I took a logic course in CC). I’m getting ~165-168. I’m going to use the LSAT Bible to study in the fall, for the December exam.

I haven’t looked for letters of rec yet, although my professors like me. I text back in fourth with some of my professors and TAs from this past Spring quarter, and often spent office hours just hanging out with another one of my professors. I got one of my few “A-s” in his course, and rejected an “A” round when he offered. I sat in for one of his courses this Spring quarter. His courses were on Zionism and Israeli politics, so it might be relevant if I try to present myself as someone with ideologies.Maybe I’ll get a letter from one of the mentors in my Yeshiva next year.

As far as extra curricular, I worked this past year as a recruiter for Birthright (a program that sends Jewish youths to Israel for free). I made $6,000, and am using that money to travel right now in Europe for the next five weeks. I was also a media intern for the John McCain US Senate Reelection campaign last summer, was the president of UCLA’s CA Freedom Project (we submitted opinion pieces for the Daily Bruin, to highlight liberal biases on campus). I was the head of the columnist project for my school’s Jewish Student Magazine (regularly wrote satires, news, and opinion pieces for both online and print, and received an award for "Best Investigative Journalist for the past year), and was head of outreach for Students Supporting Israel (I organized three different events, and expanded membership. I also ran the Facebook page).

At CC, I was the president of the current events club, volunteered at the Ronald Reagan Library for about a month, and was on the school’s improv team (we competed once a semester). Should I leave all of this out?

I also have two publications at UCLA. One in one of my professor’s yearly nanotechnology textbooks, and another in my school’s political science student journal on the lack of congressional representation.

Will community college hurt my chances at law schools? I graduated at the top of my class at UCLA, two years early. I was also very active on and off campus. Would this make up for it?

I’m planning on writing my essays on coming from a low-income home, but finding ways to pay my own way through school. Also on my business ambitions, and my successful and failed pursuits in the business world.

If I can get into Harvard, NYU, Yale, Stanford, Penn, Chicago, Northwestern, or Columbia, should I attend law school? Which law school is best for business? Personally, I find it hard to justify $180,000 debt for professional school in a field I don’t want to necessarily get into. But on the other hand, I really enjoy law, and I think the degree could be fun to have (maybe not at the price). I wouldn’t go to a law school at a school other than these, because of their rankings, locations, networks, and programs. What are my chances at these schools? Is it possible to negotiate aid packages with the schools I mentioned?

Should I consider a one-year masters programs instead? If I did a masters program, I’d want to do it either in New York, or somewhere outside of the US.

Thank you so much.

2

Usually many “chance me” posts feature a poor GPA or poor LSAT score yet still want entry into a top school, and give all sorts of sob story excuses for the poor GPA or poor LSAT score. It’s so nice to see that your post has none of that. Perhaps the fact that you achieve, instead of fail while offering excuses for failure, correlates to your politics?

You should have a great shot at pretty much any top-tier school, including HLS and Yale, with some more work on your LSAT (which I am sure you can do). You have the GPA for both, and if your LSAT score is 165-168 without practice, with some effort, you can clearly get that LSAT score much higher. If you get it to around the HLS median, with your high GPA and interesting background, I think that you would have a great shot–and Yale, too.

When I was applying to law schools (20 years ago), I took a Kaplan test-prep class and studied hard for a few months. I would try various ways to get your LSAT score up and apply only once you have done that.

Yes, if you get into any of the law schools you list–and you will- yes, law school is worth attending. You can negotiate aid at some of them. I don’t know which is best for business; they all have superb business schools within the same university and you can probably cross-register if you want.

Don’t waste your time with a master’s program. The year in Israel sounds neat, and if you haven’t gotten your LSAT score up to where you want it by the time it takes to apply, work somewhere for another year before taking the LSAT and applying.

I would mention extracurriculars if the application specifically asks them to be listed, and also mention them if they tie into your life story/passions that you will write about for your essays. I wouldn’t list right-leaning names as part of any mentions of your political involvement, though (I can only guess how much damage Trump has done to the already previously-unpopular right-wing circles at those schools).

Best wishes, and please keep us posted!

3

I concur with HA that you will likely be accepted into most of the T14, and many with significant merit money. Where I disagree is, should you?

Then don’t go to LS. Period.

You can’t know that, since you really haven’t been exposed to what lawyers do day in, day out. You’ve had some exposure to politics and journalism, but neither requires a JD.

head to Chicago and see if you can intern/volunteer at Second City.

Your mistake was finishing UCLA early without a focus on quant/analytical classes. Unless you want to go into the Sales-side, a Poli Sci degree is generally not to the path to IB.

Generally a bad idea for professional school. Work for a few years, do the military service, gain some life skills, and come back to us.

4

If you want to get into investment banking, try for an analyst job in an investment bank, not law school.

It might be a good idea to spend a few years trying out different fields and then think about grad school when you’re maybe 24/25. You have a huge advantage over others in finishing school so early; that gives you time to explore.

I took the GMAT (practice) and it is easier to get a top score on it than the LSAT, and business schools don’t require the same brainpower that law schools require (just ask Dean Minow at HLS what she thinks of HBS). Business school should be an easy option for you if you want, after a few years of working.

5

Don’t go to law school! Why would you go to law school if you want to do finance? Only go if you want to practice law

6

If you don’t want to be a lawyer, don’t go to law school. If you want to do finance, don’t go to law school. The program at Yeshiva sounds awesome and should open a lot of doors. All that being said, do you really know what “being a lawyer” means? I believe the answer to that is “no”. Hell, most law students don’t know what being a lawyer means. You are in a position where (regardless of whether you do military service or not, and that would only add to your credentials) you can pretty much choose your own path. Well done.

7

I’m afraid that I must disagree with the general sentiments that the OP definitely shouldn’t go to law school. at all. If the OP can obtain a full merit ride such that he isn’t paying anything (or paying very little) - which sounds plausible given the OP’s stats - then, frankly, what does he really have to lose? Sure, he would have to spend his time, but he would likewise have to spend time on the yeshiva proposal that seems to be popular with the respondents here. And besides, it doesn’t seem as if the OP is particularly enthused about any of the career opportunities that are available to him anyway (for if he was, he would have taken them). It therefore seems to me that spending some time at a free-ride law school wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for the OP to do. If he finds out once he’s there that he doesn’t like law school or that something better comes along, he can always quit. Nobody is forcing him to stay to graduation.

As for why somebody who doesn’t want to practice law would nevertheless want to obtain a law degree, I would argue that plenty of people who have law degrees don’t practice law. Politicians are perhaps the prime example, with businessmen being a close second. Did Mitt Romney ever practice law during a single day in his life? I can’t seem to find any evidence of that. Yet I never hear anybody criticizing Romney for his decision to attend law school. {I’ve heard people criticize Romney for many other things, but not for that.} Similarly, it’s debatable whether Bill Clinton ever truly practiced law at all, having been first a law professor (which entails the teaching/research of law rather than the practice of law) and then Arkansas Attorney General (which mostly entails the management of a team of lawyers rather than about the practice of law per se). Even if one were to count those positions as the practicing of the law, the fact remains that Bill Clinton still practiced law for at most a few years before engaging in a (no pun intended) full-blown political career. Was that really a bad thing?

So my advice to the OP would be: take the LSAT, apply around, see where you might be admitted with aid. Once you obtain a complete litany of options, then you can choose the best one. What’s the worst that can happen?

8

Sure, there are thousands of folks who graduate law school that never practice law. (Some just can’t get a legal job!) Others practice for a short time, and decide that they’d rather be doing something else.

Regardless, your anecdotes don’t really answer the question which is, ‘why attend law school if you don’t want to be a lawyer?’ One can easily go into politics without a JD. (I would argue that being Attorney General of a state does does require a law degree, but that is just me.)

Mitt was enrolled in the JD-MBA program, and could have easily gone into Bain with just the HBS MBA (grades or his dad’s connections!). OTOH, when you are a scion, why not kill some time in LS?

Opportunity cost: three years of life? More limited job opportunities? Sure a few employers might find the JD an “advantage”, but many (most?) business employers will see that JD and assume that the OP is just booking time until s/he can find a real lawyer job.

And quitting after 1 or two years is not probably the best thing for a resume enhancer.

9

That’s not what I said. What I said is that plenty of people obtain law degrees without any intent to practice of law for long (if at all). We can argue about what the definition is of ‘practicing law’, but I would argue that being a law professor - which Bill Clinton did - is not the practice of law (as, for one, you don’t actually need to pass the Bar to teach law, and some law professors don’t even hold law degrees). Being state attorney general is not really about the practice of law but is far more of a political position that involves the management of a team of lawyers. I suspect that very few attorney generals spend much time personally drafting legal documents or appearing in court.

And the same philosophy applies here: when, like the OP, you’re 19 years old who’s already finished his bachelor’s and doesn’t really know what to do, spending some time in LS that you’re not paying for (for, like I said, the OP is highly likely to obtain a full ride somewhere) is not the worst thing in the world.

And the other options that you mentioned don’t suffer from the same drawbacks? For example, I see that you advised that the OP should volunteer at Second City. Wouldn’t that necessarily incur opportunity costs? Wouldn’t an employer who sees Second City on the resume simply assume that the OP is just going to quit one day to pursue his big break in the entertainment industry? Wouldn’t trying Second City and quitting after a year imply a measure of flakiness on the part of the OP? The same could be said about the yeshiva alternative that seems to be rather popular with the respondents here. It seems to me that the OP doesn’t really know what he wants to do; anything that he might try would have some drawbacks.

Look, the guy is just 19 years old right now. How mature and career-savvy were most of us when we were 19? Most 19 year olds are barely even career-oriented at all; I can think of plenty who do little more than play video games all day long. Plenty of others are unmotivated college students, drifting aimlessly from major to major, not really knowing why they’re even in college at all (other than that their parents want them to be there), doing little more than hooking up, drinking, and partying.

Even the ones who are career-oriented are pursuing careers that probably won’t lead anywhere. For example, plenty of 19 year olds move to NY/LA/Chicago to pursue entertainment careers, and while a few might become successful, let’s face it, the vast majority of them will have little to show on their resumes except for years of waiting tables and parking cars. Still others dropped out of college (or never went to college in the first place) to pursue tech startup entrepreneurship. Let’s not romanticise the fantasy of the young Silicon Valley startup entrepreneurship: while a few such guys might become the next Mark Zuckerberg, the overwhelming majority of them will just spend years of their lives running up credit card debt whilst stuck surviving off Ramen in a Silicon Valley garage while building a tech company that fails. What about all of them? I know that I’m not comfortable with critiquing the career paths of any of them.

Besides, lots of people (almost certainly most) pursue degrees that they never actually use. Most poli-sci majors will not become political scientists, most art history majors will not become art historians, most sociology majors will not become sociologists, most psych majors will not become psychologists, most English majors will not become literature critics. Heck, there are plenty of people who complete PhD’s that they never end up using: particularly in the humanities or the life sciences where the labor supply greatly outnumbers the demand and many PhD holders find that they must pursue alternative careers. What about them?

And that’s just considering people who even complete their degrees at all. Yet the fact is, the 6-year graduation rate for full-time undergrads is only 60%, and while a few people such people may eventually complete their degrees in year 7 or beyond, the fact remains that at least 1/3 of all undergrads will never even complete the bachelor’s degree at all. Similarly, about half of all new PhD students will never actually complete the PhD. Even many of those who actually complete the PhD will just end up in low-paid postdocs or adjunct lecturing positions for years without ever obtaining a stable academic career. What about them?

In light of all of that, it’s hard for me to see why it is the end of the world if somebody enters law school without wanting to practice law. In light of all that, it’s hard for me to see why it is the end of the world if somebody drops out of law school after a year.

I feel that this entire conversation is applying a standard of probity and forethought that we would never apply to practically any other 19-year old, including ourselves. I freely admit that I was a deeply immature and irresponsible kid when I was 19, not knowing what I really wanted to do and just drifting around directionlessly. I certainly wasn’t seriously considering the possibility that my actions might not “look good” to employers or that I might somehow be limiting my job opportunities. The same was true of most of my peers. Look, what do you expect from 19-year-olds?

Look, the OP has already accomplished more at age 19 than practically any other 19-year old that I know. I therefore don’t see what is so outrageous about the notion of allowing him to explore law school which he likely won’t paying for anyway. Lots of people explore various college majors that they don’t pursue; is that a bad thing? Lots of people explore various careers that they don’t pursue; is that a bad thing? If not, then what makes a law school - on a free ride - so different?