<p>Remove “(because of the quarter system)” and no one will argue with your statement. Your claim that the quarter system is relevant is what is in dispute. At semester schools, you can find the same increased intensity (e.g. MIT 18.01, Harvard Math 55a/55b) due to packing 30 or 45 weeks of material into a 15 week semester. And when Berkeley switched from quarters to semesters many years ago, some multi-quarter sequences got packed more densely into semesters, increasing the course intensity.</p>
<p>Also note that some of the schools have courses of varying credit values (Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, but apparently not Harvard). Even if a course may pack the material more densely, it may have a higher credit value, so a student taking such courses would take fewer courses compared to “normal” courses.</p>
<p>As I thought was obvious by this point, the addendum of “because of the quarter system” is that at schools on the quarter system, it will tend to be the case that a higher proportion of classes will be more intense. That’s a function of the quarter system. So think of it like this: we have some intensity A, defined as the quotient of depth and time. We hold A constant. At some schools on the quarter system - X, above - there will be higher proportion, Z/T (Z same as above, T=total courses), of courses at the level of A. At schools on the semester system, Z/T is smaller, still at the level of A. So Z/T at (X) quarter system schools > Z/T at semester system schools. This is not always true. In fact, the inequality may be reversed in many cases, depending on selectivity of the schools in question. I would say that as selectivity increases, the number of cases where the above inequality is true also increases.</p>
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<p>My understanding was the for most of its life, Berkeley was on the semester system, then switched to the quarter system, and then switched back. My intuition would say that they simply returned to the status quo of pre-quarter system days.</p>
<p>Freshman/sophomore math probably remained the same from semester to quarter; it remained the same from quarter to semester. Freshman/sophomore physics compressed from semester to quarter and then compressed again from quarter to semester, with the same material being taught in less time each change. CS apparently reorganized much of the curriculum when the quarter to semester change occurred; in some cases, two or three normal size quarter courses were compressed into a single large (as in high credit units, high class time, high workload) semester course. There may not have been that much in the way of CS when the semester to quarter change occurred previously.</p>
<p>I’m loving the hate on Berkeley. If given the choice to attend either my average state schools vs. berkeley, I would choose my state school. Berkeley is not even ranked in the top 20.</p>
<p>You keep failing to support your own conclusion, that is ‘quarter intensity is caused by course compacting.’</p>
<p>I may concur that a quarter system is perceived as more intense, and it may even be more intense (perception = 99% of reality – haha). But in my opinion, and it is only my opinion, the intensity has little to do with compacting courses in general – other than Dartmouth in which the D-Plan is designed to specifically compact courses. D’s Frosh Chem is not taught over three quarters but just two quarters. (Of course, D-students ‘only’ take three courses per terms as a result - instead of the typical four at a quarter college and 5 and a semester college – another point that has been absent in this discussion.)</p>
<p>Sure, when Cal switched to semesters in the early 80’s, some two quarter sequences were compacted into one semester, but then the unit value increased accordingly to account for the increased intensity. And since the units to graduate remained the same…</p>
<p>IMO, the intensity of the quarter system rears its ugly head in the lit/hume courses. With only ~ten weeks a student practically has to start thinking of a term paper topic on the first day of the class as the Prof hands out the syllabus. But of course, said student has exactly zero knowledge in the subject to even think about a topic. Thus, it’s more practical to wait until after the mid-term (weeks 5-6), which only leaves a few weeks to conduct a lit search, research and write. Take 2-3 such courses, and all-nighters become commonplace. Under a semester system, with 15/16 weeks, term papers can be better planned. Of course, said student may be doing one more paper (due to higher course load), but can balance that out by taking a math/science course with no papers.</p>
<p>From my extensive posting experience I have found that phantasmagoric thinks that namedropping credentials counts as supporting his conclusions. You are going to have to find some other way to communicate to him what you mean.</p>
<p>And where have I done that? If you have an inferiority complex and think my mentioning Stanford is “namedropping credentials,” that’s not my problem - but I mention it only because that’s what my experience has come from.</p>
<p>(I assume that you’re still bitter about the thread related to computer science - and for the record, nobody would begrudge me mentioning that I’m in a CS PhD program, which for most does help to establish that you know what you’re talking about. If you still have a problem with that, keep it to yourself, because it has no relevance whatsoever to this discussion.)</p>
<p>bluebayou,</p>
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<p>I find it hypocritical that you begrudge me not ‘supporting’ my own conclusion, but then go on yourself to assert completely unsupported claims and think that throwing in a few "in my opinion"s makes it different (perhaps I should have done that and you’d stop complaining - but I thought it was obvious that “in my opinion” was implicit, as is always the case in this type of discussion; it shouldn’t even be necessary to pepper every statement with “in my opinion”). Neither can have much weight without painstakingly comparing the curricula for various classes for different schools on different systems to see patterns. Since this was not some case study, but rather a small assertion of mine that has been attacked vehemently because it goes against what people always assume, I haven’t done the extensive comparison of every school on every system for every subject and every class. </p>
<p>But just because my own ideas are contrary to what everyone assumes to be true doesn’t mean that it isn’t worthwhile to mention them, especially when it’s an offhanded comment that’s taken far beyond what its original intent was. Further, neither you nor anyone else has any significant evidence to support your own beliefs - namely that the semester term does cover more material than the quarter term. How can you hold me to that standard when you don’t even know whether your own assumptions and beliefs are actually the case?</p>
<p>So, my question then is, why is the quarter system seemingly so much more intense? Why is it that mental health/stress is a huge issue on Stanford’s campus right now? Specifically, why is the university so concerned right now that students are too stressed? Why is it that professors and mental health experts suggest that the quarter system is playing a role and that Stanford should consider again switching to semesters or changing its curricula? This was suggested at a panel for the Faculty Senate I went to earlier this year. The Daily’s report on it included: </p>
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<p>The only thing I can think of - and is supported by my own experience, as well as others’ - is that faculty members have a tendency to demand too much of a 10-week quarter. That’s supported by my own comparison of curricula in classes I’ve taken, namely in CS, against other schools’, where I’ve found that Stanford often requires the same depth but in 10 weeks instead of 15. </p>
<p>This mental health/Duck Syndrome/experts’ suggestions point is where this initial comment came from. I’m asking you and whoever else has an interest, why is this the case? If you cling to the belief that semesters are equally intense, then don’t throw your hands up and give no explanation for why the above is the case, then refuse to see any validity in my claims and offer a poor, unsupported alternative yourself (e.g. that it’s only in lit/hume course). You haven’t even given sound reasons for why semesters are as intense, especially when evidence, namely in most students’ experience, runs contrary to that.</p>
<p>And I haven’t even made sweeping claims about semesters vs. quarters: every time I have made a statement about quarters being more intense, I heavily qualify it with additional factors that rely on specific courses, subjects, and colleges, and on the proportions of each that allow one to make a statement of ‘intensity.’ I haven’t made the sweeping statement about every quarter school and in fact have only made the concrete assertion of high intensity about Stanford, which is where my experience is from. The rest is a hunch - say, about UChicago and why its students are known to be unhappy and stressed, and why they have grade deflation. I have a feeling (or as you would say, “in my opinion”) - which is not a silly one - that it has something to do with the fact that UChicago is on the quarter system.</p>
<p>Finally, in my last post I asked you to point out what your specific objections were, and you did not. You’ve posted several times saying a lot without saying anything at all, and it’d be nice if you’d actually engage in the discussion: state which parts don’t make sense (even if it’s “all of it,” point out what), come up with examples and lines of logic that show why it doesn’t make sense, offer an alternative, attempt to hold yourself to the same standard of proof.</p>
<p>If you don’t care enough to do so, then let’s not bother.</p>
<p>If you know what you are talking about, it should be apparent from your posts. It wasn’t apparent in your posts in the old thread. Mentioning that you are a grad student at Stanford doesn’t change that.</p>
<p>^ The OP in that thread was specifically asking about graduate programs, so it was relevant for me to state how I know about such programs. (And I graduated from Stanford, doing PhD elsewhere.)</p>
<p>This thread just made me think about an article that I saw on this site a month or two ago. So many kids (especially on this website) aim to get into schools that are hard to get into, or reach schools, rather than trying to get into schools where they’re one of the “smarter” kids. It makes sense in some ways and in some cases, don’t get me wrong, but some kids are used to being the smart ones in high school, but then they get into these prestigious universities and aren’t the smart kid anymore and they don’t know how to deal with it.</p>
<p>Though not saying you made a mistake going to an ivy by any means, because I say if you can get into one that you want to go to, then do it. Just glad that you have been able to accept that you’re not the top dog now.</p>
<p>Not sure why the high horse, phantom. My opinion is just that, my opinion. But unlike you , I didn’t try state it as fact. (I freely admit that I have no facts by which to support my opinion.). But then I’m guessing neither do you, even though in post 102, you state that it is “obvious…”,</p>
<p>The quarter system does make the literature and philosophy sorts of classes very intense for the reason bluebayou states. D just told me she that the topic for the paper she just wrote was included on the syllabus, so theoretically she could have started writing it on Day 1 of the quarter. But she hadn’t learned anything yet, including the professor’s style and expectations. As it turned out, she didn’t start it until very late in the game, which she said was actually fortunate since her original understanding of the prompt was completely off. This she learned only very recently, when the professor finally decided to discuss in depth the material behind the prompt and what it was he wanted from them in the paper. So since this explanation was given at the start of midterms when so much else was due and she had exams, she ended up having to write the bulk of it in one day and on little sleep. Not ideal at all, and very stressful.</p>
<p>This is in response to the comment on quarters and semesters. I’ve attended schools on both the quarter and semester system. Quarter system breaks full-year core classes into 3 levels (Physics I, II and III) and Semester levels would refer to those 3 classes as Physics I and II … the content is different even if the name is similar. On other electives, you can take more unique electives per year, since you get 3 choices for every year instead of just two. Quarters are 10 weeks / Semesters are 15 … they both equate to 30 weeks of classes, give or take a day. The disadvantage of quarters is that for summer jobs you are getting out later than the semester students if your quarters start after labor day and you go to school until June. Many semester schools seem to start before Labor Day and end in the first half of May. My alma mater was supposedly moving to semesters, and away from quarters. I think in the end the logistics of support 3 quarters versus 2 semesters of class registration is much cheaper, so that would be a motivating factor to switch. </p>
<p>Back to the OP … great opening post. Thanks for sharing. My S is a senior and we are trying to find the right fit, even though in moments of excellence we all think to add a few more reaches to see if he’ll get accepted. When we calm down we recognize that fit is better for him than prestige.</p>
<p>I attended a college many many years ago that was on the quarter system. It was compacted and stress did play a role, as it does today. But semester systems have their own stress as well. Some people like quarters because its more variety in taking courses and a better chance to take electives that excite you but aren’t in your major. I took several russian history and russian literature courses, with the permission of the Dean for Students, on that basis. </p>
<p>Its not a question of one being better than the other, its a question of what does each individual student want in their course of studies. Its up to them to investigate before they apply and attend and make a mature judgment.</p>