Getting recommendations

Graduate School Business School - MBA
21

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>I can see your point, and I was certainly NOT advocating the type of "assistance" that you referred to. To me, having someone else write my essays or craft the entire application would simply be wrong, not to mention that I would simply not trust such a person to be able to express who <em>I</em> am. You have to also consider that many people are disingenuous on their applications or during interviews, whether they have "coaches" to advise them or not.</p>

<p>There is certainly a gray area, but it's funny you should bring these issues up. I posted a thread a couple of days ago in the SAT forum about rampant incidents of cheating on the SAT and how I was disgusted by the situation and intend to notify ETS and the College Board to try to fix the holes in test security. Apparently, MANY students cheat on such exams, and we both know that many students also have their parents or outside consultants literally write their essays for them. To me, such behavior would be out-of-line and is far, far worse than legitimate test preparation or admissions consulting.</p>

<p>BTW, not to get too personal here, but since I have shared a bit of myself here, what is your background and expertise? I see you posting in many of the other forums, and I am wondering what experiences you have to substantiate your supposedly authoritative advice and feedback in this and other forums.</p>

<p>Thanks for responding.</p>

22

<p>Godot, most people applying to top business schools do have those credentials. I admire your success in your tutoring business, but that isn't quite the business that stands out to ad-coms at top business schools. Let's put it this way: If applicant A had a excellent recommendation from a vice-president at Goldman Sachs, and applicant B had a nice recommendation from his employees, which would you rather admit? It's not so much that they would be more capable than you are, but the ad-coms specifically know what kind of people GS hires (most likely, the kind of people they want at their business school), but they do not know as much about you. Like it or not, it puts you at a disadvantage.</p>

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<p>Godot, I'm going to give you another example, which may seem off-key, but bear with me. I happen to know a woman who is in business for herself and has been tremendously successful (in her good years, she can pull in 7 figures, yet her business consists only of herself, and she has very few expenses - no office, no employees to pay, etc. etc.), and displays tremendous business acumen. On the other hand, without getting into the particulars of what she does, let's just say that she's a rather famous and highly popular "gentlemen's entertainer". Note - everything she does is completely legal and, at least in my eyes and her eyes, I see nothing wrong with what she does. On the other hand, it's safe to say that a great many people would think that her and her entire industry are immoral and corrupting. She certainly doesn't go around talking about what she does for a living while in polite company. And she certainly would not be somebody I consider to be B-school material despite the fact that she is highly successful at what she does, simply because, rightly or wrongly, her industry is viewed by many people as tainted and not exactly above-board. I could clearly see what would happen if she did happen to apply - an adcom officer would probably say that the school should not associate itself with people from her line of work. </p>

<p>I believe that, again, rightly or wrongly, you may be in the same boat. Whether you agree with them or not, a lot of B-schools simply see businesses like yours as wrong, and don't want to associate themselves with your industry. I know that's not what you want to hear, but I think you're better off hearing it here than finding out the hard way later. That's not to say that you shouldn't apply, but if you do, I would recommend shrouding the specifics of what you do. Just like if the woman I know decided she wanted to go to B-school, I would recommend to her not to talk very much about the specifics of what she does for a living.</p>

24

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>That's fine, but you still did not answer my questions in the last post. I wanted to know what expertise and experience you might possess to give you this much authority in dishing out advice and feedback. Please answer the question. uc_benz, no offense, but your profile says you're 18 years old, and unless you have somehow gained massive experience in business school admissions in your first 18 years, I will have to take your advice with a grain of salt.</p>

25

<p>I've been in college longer than the majority of the people on this site, and I taken several courses in the College of Business Administration. So yeah, that speaks for itself.</p>

<p>Anyways, this is not a professional admissions advice service. Whether sakky is a garbage man or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, you asked for his opinion and he gave it to you. Sorry to say, but you're not going to get professional advice anywhere on the web for free.</p>

26

<p>On the contrary, I've actually found another site that features people who are the professional admissions consultants that sakky speaks so admiringly about. And, it DOES make a huge difference whether sakky is a garbage man or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. I see him giving out advice on not just this forum, but forums for law school and medical school as well, and I wanted to know what gives him such expertise. Perhaps he is a professional consultant, too -- I have no idea, and that's why I asked.</p>

27

<p>sakky, there you go again!! grr.. how can you compare a test preperation business with your stripper or w/e friend? i know, i know.. you'll say you weren't comparing godot's business with her's, but then what was the point of that post? a test preparation business will not look as bad as you're making it sound.</p>

28

<p>Another difference may be that, even if this woman COULD disclose the exact nature of her profession, the reason she may not exactly be business school material is NOT so much the questionable nature of what she does, but the structure of her business. If she is able to make 7 figures without hiring any employees, there are very few opportunities for her to develop the leadership and management skills that business schools covet. Furthermore, since it is still a one-person operation, and her advertising is probably mostly through word-of-mouth, she would not have been tested in the areas of marketing and advertising. I don't suppose that she really needs to visit high schools and colleges, talk to counselors, teachers, professors, students, etc., give presentations or workshops, write direct mail to parents, place ads in newspapers and other publications, or do any one of the myriad other tasks that I and my staff regularly engage in to market the business. And because she is a one-person operation, there is no possibility for national expansion and the rigors of dealing with that. The same argument can apply to the mom-and-pop stores you cite. Business schools might feel a little more warmly about the founder of Subway than the owner of a local pizza shop. So your example is poorly drawn.</p>

<p>Despite everything you have written, I will take an optimistic stand here and trust that the nature of my business will not be an insurmountable obstacle. After all, sales is an integral part of my business, and the business school application is really about selling yourself. It's all in the presentation. Yes, admissions committees can possibly be turned off by what I do, but the attitude with which I present it also matters a great deal. And I refuse to be ashamed of what I do or find it any less rewarding or reputable than the work of those famed investment bankers or consultants. Keep in mind that business schools are also looking for applicants with unique backgrounds -- these investment bankers and consultants are a dime a dozen. I am not.</p>

<p>So thank you for your advice and comments, sakky (despite the fact that you STILL have not presented your credentials). I don't think I will actively hide what I do, IF I decide to apply to business school.</p>

29

<p>First of all, I refuse to play the credentials game. I believe that if a person's ideas are good, then they are good. If they are bad, then they are bad. I'll put it to you this way. Let's say that I was Bill Gates, but I gave you bad advice. It doesn't matter that I'm Bill Gates, I still gave you bad advice.</p>

<p>Godot, you seem to be searching for an opening for an ad-hominem attack. What does it matter who I am? If you don't like my ideas, then by all means debate my ideas. It seems that you're far more interested in my credibility and my biography than in what I have to say. Look, either a person's ideas are good, or they're not. </p>

<p>Now, to patientlywaiting, well, you perfectly anticipated my response. The problem is not what we think of Godot's business. The problem is what the adcoms think of it. Rightly or wrongly, adcoms don't like Godot's industry. Never have, never will. You and I might not have any problem with his industry, but that doesn't matter. What matters is what the adcoms think about it. And what the adcoms think about it is not all that different from what some people think of that friend I was referring to. That's why I brought it up. Come on, patientlywaiting, you're a sharp guy, you can read between the lines. </p>

<p>And finally, back to Godot, oh I don't know that I agree with the characteriziation you made about her. I personally think she has displayed tremendous leadership and managerial skils. Dealing with aggresive (sometimes violently so) clients, engaging in very tough negotiations with not-so-ethical club owners, dealing with marketing (again, without getting into specifics, she is very very good at marketing herself - trust me, her advertising is not through word-of-mouth at all, but is actually quite substantial and mass media), organizing road-show after road-show. In my personal opinion, I think she is a far more worthy B-school candidate than a lot of people I see getting in to elite programs. And if you want to talk about uniqueness, well, heh, she definitely brings that to the table. Self-confidence, unbelievable showmanship, an intricate understanding of negotiation, a tremendous knack for self-promotion, and, oh yes, excellent grades at a very high-prestige undergraduate program which I shall not name in the interest of privacy, but everybody has heard of her alma mater. The only strike against her, and it is a very big one, is the industry she is in. </p>

<p>Now as to you, godot, you are obviously not to her extreme. I never said that you were. But it does go to show that, rightly or wrongly, B-school adcoms have certain industries that they like and others they don't like. Hers is one industry that they really don't like. Yours is another they don't like (although they dislike hers more than yours). And that's why I am advising you now that you probably shouldn't disclose what exactly your industry is unless you must.</p>

<p>But it seems to me that that's not really why you're here. Maybe I'm wrong, Godot, but it seems as if you've already made up your mind, and if so, then it doesn't really matter what I or anybody else says. You came here asking for advice, but it seems as if you don't really want it. Am I wrong in saying that? Am I off-base? If you really do want advice, well, people like me and Uc_benz and others are trying to give it to you. If you don't want it, then please tell us, and we'll stop wasting our time.</p>

30

<p>Let's just face the music: a $100,000 a year profit is not going to cut it for elite business schools. I could buy 100,000 1 dollar candy bars and sell them and I would match your profit. I am by no means saying your business is not successful, but look in the grand scheme of things: $100,000 is not a lot of money.</p>

<p>I am not arguing that ad-coms won't like your business due to the nature of it because I can't comment on that, but I am just saying its not profitable enough at this point...even though it could be in the future.</p>

31

<p>Look, sakky and uc_benz. I don't think it was an ad-hominem attack at all. I already wrote that I appreciate your comments and feedback, and they are thoughtful. But you should understand that people will tend to seek advice from those who are knowledgeable or experienced in the field. Whether it's fair or not, or rational or not, we tend to seek advice from authorities. You imply that your advice is good, but I have no way of knowing or judging that, since <em>I</em> am not an expert myself. So I AM looking for good advice -- I am just not sure I have found it. I still respect your insightful and thoughtful comments, but you will understand if I will be a little wary of them, since you refused to respond to one of my questions. I must assume from your non-response that you are NOT an expert in this field. Therefore, I have NOT made up my mind, and I appreciated your responses.</p>

<p>Let's just agree to disagree. Thank you.</p>

32

<p>I refuse to answer one of your questions based on pure principle. I believe you know that the rules of debate dictate that ad-hominem attacks of any sort are disallowed. And the fact is, if you adhere to those rules of debate, then you should never need to ask about the biographies of anybody, because that sort of information is only useful for an ad-hominem attack, which is disallowed. By providing biographical data, I am basically signalling that ad-hominem attacks (and defenses) are perfectly OK to do, or in other words, if I answer a question about biography, then that means that it was acceptable for somebody to ask a question about biography. </p>

<p>I prefer to stick to polite rules of debate, rather than getting into a mishmash over whose biography is better and trading insults over character and credibility. Now, don't get me wrong, Godot, I am not saying that you would do that. But if I give my biography to you, then I have to give it to everybody else, and the fact is, not everybody out there is as honorable as you. You might not want to engage in ad-hominem attacks, but the fact is, there are a lot of people out there on CC who will happily do so. </p>

<p>So if I have given you a less than completely satisfactory answer, well, according to my code of conduct, that's the way it has to be. All I can advise you to do is to take my answer and check it out with other people who you do recognize as sources of authority, and I believe they will confirm what I have said. The reality is that your line of business, rightly or wrongly, is not looked upon kindly by many adcoms. Whether you agree with them or not, that is the situation. </p>

<p>You can look at it from their point of view. Let's say that your application crosses the table of the HBS adcom. They may be afraid that if they admit you, then after you graduate, you are then going to go back to your business and advertise "I'm a HBS graduate, so come to my training school and I will teach you the secrets of how to get into HBS too". People have in fact done precisely this, and the schools hate them for it. However, in your case, they already know that you are in the training business, so they have reason to suspect that you have a likelier chance of hawking your newfound degree this way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you are going to do that. I am just explaining what might be going through their heads. </p>

<p>It's the same thing that adcoms might be afraid of in reference to my female friend. These schools won't want to touch her with a 10-foot pole despite her tremendously strong qualifications, simply because they don't want their school name associated with the industry she is in. The last thing that HBS or Stanford wants is to have her go around advertising "Come watch a Harvard graduate engage in, uh, 'special performances'" or "Shocking Videos of Stanford Girls Gone Wild" or something like that. I am just making that up, but you know what I'm getting at. These adcoms might feel that by granting her admission, they would in effect be consorting with her industry, which they really would rather not do. </p>

<p>Again, it's really not a matter of whether you or I think certain industries are good or bad. This has nothing to do with my personal feelings. It's whether the adcoms think certain industries are good or bad is what matters.</p>

33

<p>I'll give you my biography.</p>

<p>Day 1 of 6752: I saw light for the first time. What else am I seeing for the first time? All I see are strange people dressed in green uniforms staring at me. After this point I am placed in a bright room and I precede to black out.</p>

<p>Tune in tomorrow for Day 2 of 6753.</p>

34

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>I went to another discussion forum, and posed the same question I posed here. The responses, in one case from an "authority" (someone who is in the business of helping applicants successfully get into top business schools), were quite different from yours. In general, they were pretty positive, and not one person raised a concern with the nature of my business.</p>

<p>This was not so much a debate than a novice asking for good advice from someone who is supposed to be an expert. When I give my students advice on the SAT, it is NOT a debate, as they know I am the expert, and it would be silly for them to challenge me on a technique (unless it is blatantly wrong or unreasonable). Therefore, the rules of debate do not really apply here. If you are going to provide what is supposedly authoritative advice to people, I suggest you support these comments with some background or experience -- a biography, as you call it. Otherwise, you should qualify that advice with a statement of your lack of expertise. If you do not, you may simply be dispensing bad advice, which novices may actually take as good advice because they cannot tell the difference. And that is doing a disservice. For example, I saw you give some questionable advice on the pre-med forum recently (and I know much more about med school admissions than I do about business school admissions).</p>

35

<p>Well lets put it this way: take the advice for face value and nothing more. You may think I'm a dumb kid who doesn't know anything. That's fine with me. But I don't know why anyone would base their decision on advice over the Internet; you really need to talk to someone face to face.</p>

36

<p>first of all SAKKY i'm a GIRL!</p>

<p>seriously sakky everytime i see one of your looooooong posts i freak out! i get so mad and feel so deeply sorry for you. why is it that you have to analyze everything? argue about everything? debate where there is no need to debate? WHY? you are now just arguing for the sake of arguing. i think i found the profession for you: become a lawyer and don't even consider business. therefore, if i were you i would move along to the lawyer forum and get the heck out of the MBA forum. and please... find something better to do than trying to justify yourself with false reaserch papers.</p>

<p>and UCBenz... i'm not even going to waste my time on you, because unlike sakky i have something better to do with my time, i have a life, and if i even get started on you this post might just become, god forbid, a sakky post.</p>

37

<p>Sakky, I do respect your posts as they are very informative and I hope that you continue to put your valuable insight on this board. However, I have seen the same things as patientlywaiting. Early on I had been listening to your advice as I thought you had gone through this experience (as Godot stated). However I have noticed you begin arguments over everything and equate logical questions to a ludicrous analogies (such as the stripper). Now how can I believe what you are saying? When you post in all types of forums it seems to me as though you are all-knowing (which you are not). You must obviously give credentials if you want us to believe your posts. You state that you know what goes on in the mind of the admissions committee, but you have not stated how you know this information. If you do not wish to post your credentials, why not give us evidence of how you got this information instead of giving us ridiculous analogies.</p>

<p>UCBenz, you have said nothing informative. You are sakky's puppet that reinforces his ideas on all his posts. When you are 18 and have never graduated from college, why post your comments regarding a graduate school? I too have not graduated from college, but the tone in my posts is much different than yours. While I try to give my opinion, you speak as an authority that knows more than everyone else.</p>

<p>NOW TO GO BACK TO THE REAL QUESTION:
You obviously have a great business regardless of what UCBenz says. I doubt UCBenz has the talent to do anything you are doing if he is going to criticizing your business on a forum. If you really are expecting $700,000 I do not see a reason for going to business school in the first place. However, would it not be a good idea to wait for a couple more years for your business to grow? Then you can boast on your application of the successes of your business.
In addition I think you have an incredible shot at any graduate school, especially if you are going to get 800 on the GMAT! (I doubt sakky got anywhere close to that).
Addressing the industry you are in, I doubt that will be a problem. Besides, is there anyway to hide your source of income??!! If I had a business such as yours I would be proud of it and would not try to hide that from anyone.</p>

38

<p>Patientlywaiting, if you don't like my posts, then don't read them. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. I think that the whole point of a discussion forum is to hear a wide diversity of opinions, not only to hear things that you like to hear. But since you apparently feel so 'sad' from reading my long posts, why don't you both do us a favor by not reading them? That way, you will no longer feel sad, I will no longer have to catch flak from you that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and we will both come out ahead. </p>

<p>Now to godot, and what specifically in the premed section that I have written do you object to? I would let you know that psedrishmd, who is the resident guru within the premed, has not seriously objected to anything I have said (any discussions that we have had have really amounted to discussions of details and never threw the basic point into question). Furthermore, if you read all my premed posts, I'd like to think that I have the data largely on my side. I have data about who ACTUALLY gets admitted to med-school as opposed to mere conjecture. Hence I'd like to think that what I have to say is pretty well backed.</p>

<p>And I would also say to you what I have said to patientlywaiting. The point of a discussion forum is to hear a wide diversity of opinions. If you don't like my opinions, fair enough, don't read them. And I have always encouraged you to go out and seek additional diverse opinions. I would only emphasize that if you do so, that you really are out seeking additional diverse opinions, not just people who will tell you only what you want to hear. If you don't believe what I am saying, I would only ask you to weigh the facts of my argument. I still have not heard anybody say that my arguments are not logically self-consistent or that they are not well-backed (if you think so, then by all means, say so, and say why). At the end of the day, I believe that B-school adcoms have institutional prejudices just like all institutions do, about what is 'right' and 'wrong' behavior, and that your practice skirts the line. Whether you think they are right or wrong in believing that is not important, what is important is that they believe that. They're not going to come right out and say so, but the fact is, you must agree, that they have institutional prejudices, and you must agree that your particular industry could (and probably is) under the gun. Whether you like to hear that or not, that's the truth. </p>

<p>But like I said, you came hear to hear people's opinions, and I gave it. If you think that I'm full of it, then fine, you are free to ignore what I have to say. But whatever you might think, surely you must agree that the whole point of a discussion forum is to get a wide range of diverse opinions. If that were not the case, then why even have a discussion forum at all? </p>

<p>Now finally to esrajay, did I ever say that I was all-knowing? Please point to a quote where I specifically said that I was all-knowing. I never said it. Again, the point of a discussion forum is to hear a discussion forum. I never said that I knew everything. However, I do think that I know quite a bit about certain specific subjects, and those subjects fall into a wide range of categories within CC. Notice that I never comment in certain forums in CC, because I don't feel that I know enough. But about the things that I do feel that I have something useful to contribute, you better believe I will say what I think. </p>

<p>Take the case of my female friend. I used it purely as an analogy to illustrate the institutional prejudices that B-school adcoms have. I never said that Godot was in the same boat, it was just an analogy to illustrate my point that B-school adcoms have certain industries that they like and others they don't. So now that I think we would all agree that certain industries are indeed disliked, the only real question up for debate is whether Godot happens to be in one of those industries (obviously not the same industry as my friend, but one in the same catogory, in that both are disliked). I stated my case as to why I think it is possible that B-school adcoms might think that this is so, and I have yet to hear a logical answer as to why it categorically would not be. Hence, you must concede that it is entirely possible that Godot is indeed in one of those disliked industries.</p>

<p>Now, is that a ridiculous analogy? If you believe so, fine. But again, I never said that Godot was like that person. I used it to illustrate a point that B-school adcoms will often act against certain industries in ways that we might think is unfair. And that porn industry is certainly one of those industries. What's so ridiculous about using an analogy to point that out?</p>

<p>Again, this is not to say that you or I agree with how B-schools might categorize certain industries as unethical. I never said that I personally think that Godot is in an unethical business, just like I never said that my friend was in an unethical business. The point is not whether a particular business violates the personal ethics of you or I, but whether the B-school adcoms think so. If nothing else, you must agree that in the case of Godot, it is possible.</p>

<p>I also never said that I categorically know what is going on in the minds of B-school adcoms. Again, if you don't believe me, point to my quote where I specifically said that I absolutely know without a doubt what is going through the minds of the adcom officers. I just stated certain possible cases of what might be going on in the minds of those adcoms, and why that might be the case. Don't put words in my mouth.</p>

39

<p>Haha, the last thing I am is a puppet of sakky's. Just look around on the other threads and you'll see that we have several disagreements. It's just the fact that I agree with him on this point.</p>

<p>And you have introduced something I never have, which is a personal attack. You seem to have a lot of character by resorting to personal attacks over a computer. Such a childish act.</p>

<p>And patientlywaiting asked for people's opinons so I gave him mine. You think most people on here have professional experience? Anyone who is smart enough to answer the question exactly is dealing with his own life instead of posting on an internet message board. I could care less if you take my opinion to heart or not; just don't complain if we aren't telling you what you want to hear.</p>

<p>With that said, I'm done with this thread.</p>

40

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>You have to understand something about advice-giving, and that is it's often different from a debate, where logic and sound arguments rule supreme. Even if the logic of your advice is unassailable (and I don't think anyone would think that it is), that would STILL not demonstrate that your advice is sound. For example, one may think it's perfectly logical to advice a fellow to shower a girl with flowers and presents to win her heart, and no one may question that logic, but that doesn't make the advice correct (and, in fact, it's very wrong). The same goes for your advice. While it sounds like it might be valid, you may be totally off-base with your assumptions about how the admissions committee thinks. But your advice cannot be proven or disproven with logic alone. The BEST advice (in my view anyways) comes from those who have MASSIVE experience in the field or topic we are dealing with, and I doubt that you do. Now, I also sought advice from those who DO have wide-ranging experience in getting applicants into business schools, top or otherwise, and their responses do not agree with yours. Whether it's fair or not, I am going to attach more value to their opinions than yours. And it's NOT a matter of my wanting to hear a particular response. If an expert had told me that I have very little chance of getting into a top business school and that I have much to improve on, I would be a little disheartened, but I would take the advice to heart and work to improve my attractiveness as an applicant. And while you never categorically state that you know what is on the minds of admissions committees or that you are a know-it-all, you do not qualify your advice enough at the same time so that the reader can make his or her own judgements. You write with an authoritative air that seems to strongly imply that you ARE an expert in these subjects, and that your advice is always valid and sound. It would help a lot more if you provided your readers with your background and experience, and why you think they should take your advice seriously. That is why you are getting the flames you are from some other readers. (Notice I am NOT flaming you here.) I objected to your telling a poster in the pre-med forum that even if he achieves a 3.4 GPA overall eventually, that he would STILL have very little chance of being admitted to medical schools. Remember that the AVERAGE GPA of ADMITTED students to medical schools is about 3.5, which means that at least some students are being admitted with under a 3.5 (meaning 3.2 to 3.4). Additionally, the TONE of your posts can be very negative. There is no need to verbally beat a poster, which is essentially what is taking place in your posts. Your readers may benefit from a more positive (but still accurate) stance on their chances, stats, etc. Telling an applicant with a 3.4 GPA with a SERIOUS dedication to becoming a doctor that his pursuit will probably be in vain is NOT the way to do it (I actually think the guy does have a good bit going for him -- such as a burning passion for medicine -- and he's at least got a marginal chance of being admitted, if he works REALLY hard). You give the impression that you actually delight in pooh-poohing readers. I tried to post and advise him to use another website, which has a resident former director of admissions at a medical school who now has a pre-med consulting business, for better advice, but CC unfortunately censored my posts.</p>

<p>You are welcome to offer your opinions and advice anywhere, but, as you know, EVERYONE has an opinion or advice, but it would definitely not be prudent to take everyone on his or her advice. I definitely agree that one should seek advice from a variety of people, which is what I have been doing. I respected your thoughtful opinions and advice, but that does not mean that I think they are sound. I actually don't think the admissions committees will really care too much that I run a test preparation or tutoring business (at the most, it may be a VERY small concern), and even if they did, I am confident that the pluses in my profile will far outweigh any negatives they might perceive with the business. Of course, I do think that it might be a lot more difficult to be admitted if your only business experience is in producing porn videos, running a porn website, or engaging in somewhat questionable network marketing businesses (which may be interpreted as pyramid schemes). But even your friend may be able to overcome any objections they may have by highlighting her superior business acumen and skills and putting her business in a proper light.</p>