<p>I was wondering if work experience was THAT big a factor in biz school admissions. I've done my research and am not a novice on these boards by a longshot, but how important can work experience possibly be? A professor that I know strongly encouraged me to take the GMAT before graduating and apply straight outta undergrad, just to see what happens. Any ideas?</p>
<p>What's the rush? The most important aspect of MBA programs is networking and establishing contacts. That's going to be really difficult if you're an inexperienced 22-year old in an environment filled with people who are almost 30 and have an average of 5 years of job experience. You won't be bringing anything worthwhile to your colleagues. It really is better in the long run to work for a few years in an entry-level position after college, and then evaluate your situation after that. Many people realize after a few years on the job that they don't need an MBA; they may get promoted purely based on performance.</p>
<p>To answer your original question, yes, work experience is a huge factor in b-school admissions. It is arguably more important than anything else, including GPA and GMAT scores. Those rare people who go to b-school straight out of college often have unusually strong leadership positions and have gotten top-notch internships during the summers. You would also need a very good reason for wanting to get an MBA so quickly.</p>
<p>I would look at Harvard Business School as one place you would want to apply to even if you think you have no chance of getting in (or you don't want to go there). </p>
<p>Why?</p>
<p>Quoted from: <a href="http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/collegestudents.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/collegestudents.html</a></p>
<p>"Special policies for College Seniors (applicants currently enrolled in a four-year university or the equivalent with no full-time work experience)</p>
<ol>
<li>Deferrals/Postponements: Admitted college seniors who feel they would benefit from some full-time work experience prior to enrolling may request either a one- or two-year postponement after admittance. The Admissions Board may also grant deferred admission to college seniors whom we feel would benefit from and contribute to the MBA Program after some full-time work experience.</li>
<li>Fee Waiver: The $225 application fee will be waived for college seniors (i.e., applicants currently enrolled in a four-year university or the equivalent with no full-time work experience).</li>
<li>Feedback: Feedback will be provided by request (in the summer following the application cycle) to any college senior who has been denied admission."</li>
</ol>
<p>But if you're rejected, doesn't that hurt your future chances for admission? This is analagous to applying to colleges after junior year. It's better to apply once you're truly ready and confident that you can be admitted. Otherwise, you're just destroying your chance of ever being able to attend HBS.</p>
<p>I dont understand why this rush to go to business school. Business is about making money not academics. If you have no work experience you more or less have never had any experience making money in a business setting so you really dont have much to give to business schools. Business school is a mean not an end. Its not as important as medical school or law school where you actually learn the trade. In business school you just network and try and get into the best places where they recruit. Nothing more. I really suggest looking at some MBA textbooks. I browsed through them and I wish my 10th grade work was quite that simple.</p>
<p>"What's the rush? The most important aspect of MBA programs is networking and establishing contacts. That's going to be really difficult if you're an inexperienced 22-year old in an environment filled with people who are almost 30 and have an average of 5 years of job experience."</p>
<p>I would guess the rush is to get it over with instead of moving across the country when your 30 and have a wife/kids. It shouldnt be difficult to network and establish contacts unless your anti-social and wouldn't dare talk to anyone. Hell there might even be 30 year olds in BSchools who have a difficult time networking. There has to be people who went to Bschool right after undergrad who where very successful.</p>
<p>You plan on being an ibanker but think biz school is a hassle because you cant spend time with wife/kids? </p>
<p>Or a statement by one of my cousins (an engineer) to his friend (an ibanker)</p>
<p>"You plan on being an ibanker and have a wife and kids?!" ;)</p>
<p>Well if you live in chicago, and the only schools you get accepted to are in new england... thats going to suck.</p>
<p>Don't have a wife and kids so early. Simple as that.</p>
<p>Exactly. Don't have a wife and kids so early. Also, if you're considering going into a workaholic field like i-banking, don't plan on seeing your family very often. 100 hours of work per week doesn't leave much quality time for a personal life. Also, many people don't realize that it's possible to obtain top-level management positions without an MBA. Moving up the corporate ladder is often based solely on performance, not your degrees. You might realize after a few years on the job that wasting two years and paying a total of $100k for an MBA is not worth it when you could achieve more by working those two years.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What's the rush? The most important aspect of MBA programs is networking and establishing contacts. That's going to be really difficult if you're an inexperienced 22-year old in an environment filled with people who are almost 30 and have an average of 5 years of job experience. You won't be bringing anything worthwhile to your colleagues. It really is better in the long run to work for a few years in an entry-level position after college, and then evaluate your situation after that. Many people realize after a few years on the job that they don't need an MBA;
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think 'the rush' stems from the fact that while it is certainly true that you won't be able to get the full value of a top-flight MBA program right out of undergrad, it's still probably better than anything else you could be doing right out of undergrad. I remember when I was 22, fresh out of undergrad, I wasn't exactly setting the world on fire. During those years, I would have probably been better off going to an elite MBA program, if I could have gotten admitted. Think about it. Let's say you had the choice of attending an MBA program at Wharton or Kellogg or Sloan or Harvard, or taking a typical entry-level job, what would you do? Again, I agree, as a dew-faced guy right out of undergrad, you won't bring much value to your MBA colleagues and you probably won't get that much out of the experience. But hey, let's face it, it's still better than being an entry-level working grunt. </p>
<p>
[quote]
...wasting two years and paying a total of $100k for an MBA is not worth it when you could achieve more by working those two years.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, you don't have to do it see it that way. You could enter one of those elite programs like the LFM program at MITSloan that provides a substantial tuition fellowship (although see my other posts as to why this isn't a true 'freebie'). Or you could get your MBA part-time at an elite school like Kellogg or Chicago and not have to give up any years of income.</p>
<p>But entering an MBA program right out of college may very well be a mistake. Why? Those students who are capable of being admitted to a top MBA program straight out of undergrad are exceptional people who would probably be the highest-performing workers in an entry-level job. The top-performing workers are often promoted to higher positions after a few years on the job that would otherwise require an MBA. These top students can achieve top management positions by sheer talent alone. In that case, spending the time and money to pursue an MBA may make them worse off than if they had worked right away. Of course, this is contingent on the fact that these students would be able to get promoted rather quickly without an MBA. I agree that entry-level grunt work is a chore. But at least you're making money, as opposed to spending it on two years of additional (and for the top students, perhaps unnecessary) schooling.</p>
<p>Well, I don't know about that. First of all, like I said, you can do the MBA part-time and radically cut down on the expense of the MBA program, because you'd still be working while studying and particularly so if you work for an employer who will give you tuition-reimbursement for night school. And again, I would point out that several elite MBA schools offer part-time programs. This is one way to greatly reduce the opportunity cost of the MBA. </p>
<p>Secondly, even being identified as a plum talent at a particular company may often times fail to lead you far. Plenty of companies, in fact, I would say most companies, are slow and stodgy where management positions are often times dictated more by seniority than by merit. So even if you are identified as a fast-tracker at a particular company, you may have to just get in line and wait your turn for a management position to open up. I'm not going to name any such companies, but trust me, I've heard the stories - even if you're the best entry-level employee in the whole company, you still have to cool your jets for years because you have yet to accumulate the seniority you need to advance. Furthermore, even if you do manage to advance through the ranks of management, many companies have so many layers of management that even moving up a couple of levels quickly still means that you are a relatively low-level player. </p>
<p>So the point is, in the hypothetical situation where you have the choice of attending an elite MBA program right after undergrad, you have to assess what your other options are. I would say that you would have to have a pretty darn good job offer at a pretty darn good company for you to turn down admission to an elite MBA program. And let's face it. Most people don't get such job offers right after undergrad. Most people, even the top go-getters, end up with grunt jobs at slow, stodgy, bureaucratic companies. </p>
<p>Now, I know what you're going to say. You're going to say, what about IB or consulting? Yeah, what about them? To advance in IB or consulting, it is usually expected that you get an MBA. Yeah, it is true that you don't absolutely need one. But I think we can all agree that an MBA is the normal path to take if you want to succeed in IB or MC. Hence, if you want to get into IB or MC, but you somehow manage to get into an elite MBA program right after undergrad, why wouldn't you take it? After all, you're effectively being given a "Get out of boring analyst positions free" card. </p>
<p>The last thing I would say is something that I hadn't brought up until now, but is perhaps the most important point of all. The fact is, MBA programs are ** fickle ** in their admissions. Admissions standards are different from year to year, depending on the strength of the applicant pool in a particular year, what sort of student body a school is trying to shape, and all sorts of other things that are out of your hands. Just because you get into an MBA program in one year doesn't mean that you're going to get in the next year. I know one guy who worked for a few years and then applied to and got admitted to several elite MBA programs including (I believe) MITSloan and Wharton. He turned them down because he felt he was really doing well at work and so he wasn't ready to quit. He figured that he would just be able to go the following year. Wrong. When he applied the next year, those elite programs turned him down. When he applied the year after that, once again, they turned him down. He did end up going to a decent MBA program, but not as good as the ones mentioned. The point is, sometimes you gotta strike while the iron is hot, because you don't know what's going to happen in the future. Just because you get in one time doesn't mean that you're going to get in again. If you get in, you have to think very carefully before turning it down, because you might never get the chance again.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, I don't know about that. First of all, like I said, you can do the MBA part-time and radically cut down on the expense of the MBA program, because you'd still be working while studying and particularly so if you work for an employer who will give you tuition-reimbursement for night school. And again, I would point out that several elite MBA schools offer part-time programs. This is one way to greatly reduce the opportunity cost of the MBA.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But wouldn't you have to work close to campus to attend such a program? One may not be able to get such a convenient job offer. And you'd still be doing the entry-level grunt work that you were complaining about.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hence, if you want to get into IB or MC, but you somehow manage to get into an elite MBA program right after undergrad, why wouldn't you take it? After all, you're effectively being given a "Get out of boring analyst positions free" card.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, assuming that you could be promoted to an associate position by sheer talent alone, I'd rather be making money and gaining hands-on experience for two years than spending money on more schooling when I'd get to the same place at the same time.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just because you get in one time doesn't mean that you're going to get in again. If you get in, you have to think very carefully before turning it down, because you might never get the chance again.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Harvard allows accepted college students to defer enrollment for up to two years, enabling them to gain work experience before going to b-school.</p>
<p>Sakky, despite what my responses to various parts of your post may indicate, I see your point, which is probably more valid than mine. For most people, the ability to obtain an MBA out of undergrad is a golden opportunity. It's like attending a combined BS/MD program. It enables them to bypass entry-level positions and get into management posts by the age of 24. For a number of rare cases, though, getting an MBA at all is a waste of time. Your argument is valid for the majority, mine for the rare exceptions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Well, I don't know about that. First of all, like I said, you can do the MBA part-time and radically cut down on the expense of the MBA program, because you'd still be working while studying and particularly so if you work for an employer who will give you tuition-reimbursement for night school. And again, I would point out that several elite MBA schools offer part-time programs. This is one way to greatly reduce the opportunity cost of the MBA. </p>
<p>But wouldn't you have to work close to campus to attend such a program? One may not be able to get such a convenient job offer. And you'd still be doing the entry-level grunt work that you were complaining about.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that depends. Many major metro areas in the country run an elite part-time program. For example, the Bay Area has the Berkeley Haas part-time program. SoCal has the UCLA part-time program. New York have the Columbia and the NYU part-time programs. And of course Chicago has the UChicago and Kellogg part-time programs. Wharton offers part-time executive MBA programs in both Philly and SF. Hence, the point is, no matter where you are, there's a decent chance that there's a good part-time program somewhere around you. </p>
<p>Then there are the (almost) fully distance-learning programs. Duke, for example, offers an MBA program that can be completed almost completely through telecommuting. MITSloan offers a distance-learning master's program. Granted, you don't get an MBA (you get a Master's of Science in Engineering and Management), but it shares many similarities to the Sloan MBA. </p>
<p>And even if not, you can still fly in every weekend to do a weekend MBA program. Admittedly, that's a pain in the ass, but no more so than taking a consulting analyst job where you're always flying around. I know people who fly in from Vancouver to San Francisco every Friday to attend the Saturday part-time Berkeley Haas MBA program. </p>
<p>I agree that you'll still be doing the boring entry-level work. But doing it the other way (doing the boring entry-level work and then going to a fulltime program for 2 years), you still end up doing the boring entry-level work. So it's a wash. </p>
<p>Now don't get me wrong. There are signifcant minuses involved in attending a part-time MBA program. It ain't all peaches and cream. In particular, the networking in a part-time program is greatly attenuated. It's hard to establish any sort of community when people are around only in the evening or the weekend. It's hard to establish any community when everybody is holding down a fulltime job that takes up most of their mindshare. Furthermore, the kinds of electives you can take in a part-time program are greatly limited. Your access to the career services office also tends to be poor. For these reasons and many others, I would say that the full-time MBA is still the best way to go, if you can swing it. </p>
<p>However, I am pointing out that for people who are unable to justify the time and opportunity cost of a fulltime program, an elite parttime program may be the way to square the circle. It's another option on the table, and it removes the excuse that some people have that they can't justify taking 2 years off of work to get an MBA. With these part-time programs, you won't have to take time off. Hence, the excuse is no longer valid. Yes, the part-time MBA is probably not as valuable as the equivalent full-time MBA at that same school. But it's better than not having any MBA at all. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Hence, if you want to get into IB or MC, but you somehow manage to get into an elite MBA program right after undergrad, why wouldn't you take it? After all, you're effectively being given a "Get out of boring analyst positions free" card. </p>
<p>Well, assuming that you could be promoted to an associate position by sheer talent alone, I'd rather be making money and gaining hands-on experience for two years than spending money on more schooling when I'd get to the same place at the same time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Now I think you are making a tremendously strong assumption. The fact is, only a tiny fraction of people in IB or MC are able to get promoted to the associate position sans MBA. Yes, they do exist, but they are basically enjoying charmed career paths. It's really like winning the lottery - sure, it's nice if you can get it, but I wouldn't count on it to happen. The vast majority of IB and MC analysts will be expected to leave to get their MBA's. </p>
<p>Hence, if you are a member of that vast majority, which you probably will be, then you are probably better off to get that MBA immediately. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Just because you get in one time doesn't mean that you're going to get in again. If you get in, you have to think very carefully before turning it down, because you might never get the chance again. </p>
<p>Harvard allows accepted college students to defer enrollment for up to two years, enabling them to gain work experience before going to b-school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But that's not the point. The point is, if you get in and turn it down, you might not be able to get in at subsequent years. For example, let's take the Harvard example. Let's say you get in as a college senior and for some odd reason, turn them down (I don't know why you would, but let's say that you did). So if you then apply later in your life, you may not get in. You gotta get while the gettin's good, because you never know when it's going to end. Similarly, if you manage to get into a strong MBA program, you have to think very carefully before turning it down, because you might not be able to get in again. </p>
<p>Which leads to a possible 'brilliant' strategy that I personally know one girl may be doing, which is to simply matriculate at an elite program and then withdraw. So what you do is take maybe a 3-6 month leave of absence of your job to complete 1 full semester/quarter at an elite MBA program. Then you can think about withdrawing from the MBA program and return to your job. That way, if things don't work out at your job, you can just return to the MBA program. The fact that you matriculated at that MBA program and then withdrew means you have a very high chance of getting back in again, probably a certain chance - and clearly a much higher chance than you would have had if you were a regular applicant. </p>
<p>So my example is, I know one girl who got into HBS after working several years at McKinsey, and studied at HBS for 1 term. However, her passion is in moviemaking and so she left HBS after that 1 term to start her own small artsy movie production company. The theory is, if she doesn't make it in movies, she can always just go back to HBS. Since she already matriculated at HBS, she's basically reserved herself a spot in the school in case she ever wants to return. That's better and safer than if she had just turned down HBS completely to start her movie company, for what if she had done that only to find her company not working out, and then applying to HBS again and not getting in? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, despite what my responses to various parts of your post may indicate, I see your point, which is probably more valid than mine. For most people, the ability to obtain an MBA out of undergrad is a golden opportunity. It's like attending a combined BS/MD program. It enables them to bypass entry-level positions and get into management posts by the age of 24. For a number of rare cases, though, getting an MBA at all is a waste of time. Your argument is valid for the majority, mine for the rare exceptions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get admitted into a top B-school without any work experience. Everybody should understand that the odds of this happening are extremely slim. So nobody should fool themselves into assuming that they will be able to simply waltz into a top MBA program right after undergrad. As a college senior with no work experience, you will probably not get into any of the top MBA programs.</p>
<p>What I am saying is that in the very unlikely chance that you do get into one, you should think carefully before turning it down, because it might never come back. Like that guy I know who got into MITSloan but turned it down and now finds that he can't get back in.</p>
<p>I was assuming that there was a correlation between the ability to get into an elite MBA program straight out of college and the ability to move up the corporate ladder without an MBA. I was thinking that those students that are skilled enough to do the former could also pretty easily do the latter. Like you said, it's practically impossible to be admitted to a top business school without prior work experience. Those that are admitted must be extraordinary, perhaps so extraordinary that their job performance could enable them to bypass an MBA altogether. My entire argument rests on whether there is this correlation, which there very well may not be. If not, then you are certainly correct in that 99% of the time, the effort and money involved in obtaining an MBA, even straight out of college, is well worth it.</p>
<p>I can agree that there is some correlation, but I question how strong that correlation is, and in particular, I question whether it's strong enough to risk forgoing immediate admission into an elite MBA program. </p>
<p>Just think about it this way. In the business world, advancement is not always determined strictly by merit. There's a lot of politics, lot of cultural issues, and a lot of luck involved. What if the economy turns bad and the company starts laying people off by seniority? The fact that you happen to be a star won't matter - you will be one of the people in the company with the least tenure, so you will be eliminated, simple as that. Fair or not fair, that's how a lot of companies process their layoffs. What if your company is acquired by some other company, and the acquirer decides to eliminate your entire department? What if your company goes bankrupt? Think about what happened to Arthur Andersen (the accounting firm that got convicted of obstruction of justice for its behavior in the Enron case and as a result lost its license to practice accounting, which meant that the company was dead - the fact that the conviction was later overturned by the Supreme Court doesn't matter because by that time the company had lost virtually all its clients). A lot of very good people who had nothing to do with the Enron fraud lost their jobs when Andersen was dissolved. </p>
<p>The point is, by turning down an immediate admission to an elite MBA program because you think you can have just as successful a management career without it, you are making a highly risky move. You are subjecting yourself to the vagaries of fate, and things may not work out the way you want. Think about turning down, say, admission to the an elite MBA program to work for Arthur Andersen, only to find that yourself out of job because of the scandal, and then find that when you reapply to Wharton, you don't get in. Again, keep in mind that just because you get in one year doesn't mean that you will get in the next time. That guy I know who got into MITSloan once, but not the next two times, has said that he should have taken the Sloan offer when it was on the table. </p>
<p>Now, again, I would emphasize that if you don't really care about a management-type career, then this conversation doesn't apply to you. For example, if you just want to be a scientist, then, sure, you don't need an MBA. Furthermore, I would again emphasize the infinitesimally small odds of getting into a top MBA program with no work experience. Basically, I would advise you not to hold your breath, because it probably won't happen. </p>
<p>However, if by some miracle you do manage to get admitted right after undergrad, and you do care about a career in management, you should be very circumspect before turning it down.</p>
<p>So basically, it's extremely difficult to get admitted to an MBA program straight out of college, but if you do, seize the opportunity right away. I see. It's kind of a Catch-22, though. Most people shouldn't apply to business school without any work experience, but for the few that are capable of being admitted, it's a golden opportunity to get ahead early on. Of course, those that are rejected may have a diminished chance for the programs they were rejected from in later years. It's like applying to colleges as a junior. It's very risky, but it enables advanced students to get ahead instead of spending another perhaps unnecessary year in high school.</p>
<p>Well, I don't know that it's really all that risky to apply right after school. Except for a few unusual cases like HBS, I don't see how submitting previous applications would hurt you, and the only reason why I can see it might hurt you at HBS is because you are allowed to submit only 3 applications to HBS in your lifetime, so by applying right after undergrad, you are burning one of those 3 chances up. </p>
<p>Now don't get me wrong - for a person who has minimal leadership qualifications or part-time work experience, he probably shouldn't apply right after undergrad because I would agree that that would display a serious misunderstanding of the B-school admission process. But for a person who has some legitimate rationale and qualification to get into B-school right after undergrad, I can't see how applying would hurt you. Sure, such a person is still highly unlikely to get in. But if you get rejected, I doubt that you would be hurt in subsequent rounds.</p>
<p>Oh, I was under the impression that reapplying to programs that you've been rejected to before does hurt you. At Wharton, only 10% of reapplicants are admitted as opposed to over 20% of overall applicants.</p>